Everyone Hates Marketers | No-BS Marketing & Brand Strategy Podcast

Rosey - 00:00:00:

It's working out what your niche is and then finding a space to show people your niche and not be afraid to follow your gut and your intuition. And just, you have to act. This is like my number one piece of advice is you have to act. Do you know, I can't bear sitting in meetings with people and it's like, let's talk about this. We could do this and we could do that. I'm very much of the school, let's just do it and we'll test it. Let's just do it. Okay, if you've got three ideas, let's do them all and we'll test them all and we see what works and we just let the audience decide. It's easy.


Louis - 00:00:39:

Bonjour, bonjour, and welcome to another episode of everyonehatesmarketers.com, the only actionable marketing podcast for people sick of marketing bullshit. I'm your host. Louis Grenier. In today's episode, you will learn how this infant sleep consultant and first-time entrepreneur built a thriving business with online courses, one-to-one consultation, a team of experts with her, and a best-selling book, and also while being a mom of three. So yeah, my guest today is a Child Sleep Consultants. She's achieved so much. I just can't wait to get into it. But I think the most important aspect of her story is that she's not a marketer, or at least she doesn't believe she is. Which I think makes this conversation way more interesting. So, Rosey Davidson, welcome.


Rosey - 00:01:26:

Hello, welcome. Welcome to me and thank you for having me. I'm really excited to speak to you today because I am normally talking more specifically around my subjects when I'm doing podcasts and things. So it'll be really interesting to delve deeper into the marketing side of things.


Louis - 00:01:45:

Have you done any marketing podcast interviews specifically?


Rosey - 00:01:48:

No, all my podcasts. I've done loads of podcasts on Spotify. I have a whole list of them I put together. I think I've done like 20 podcasts, but they've all been with parenting podcasts, some celebrities, that kind of thing. So nothing marketing specific. So this will be really interesting.


Louis - 00:02:06:

Great. So that's exactly why I wanted to chat with you because a few weeks ago, I've asked folks to introduce me to people who are not marketers and who've done great stuff. And you reach out. And that's exactly why I'm doing this. I really want to talk to people who have other stuff to say and have different perspectives and are just not trained enough to be like marketing speakers because they are very good at it. People with actual real lives and real experience. I've learned about your story a tiny bit, but I want to get into the details. I think that's the main thing that I want to cover with you today. Am I right when I said in the intro that you are a first-time entrepreneur? You didn't have a business before you started this one.


Rosey - 00:02:46:

No, not a successful business. My current business is called Just Chill Baby Sleep. But before that, and the name actually came from my previous business, which was Just Chill Baby Massage. I was working in higher education in an office. So I was very much doing nine to five, had my first child. She wasn't sleeping. I ended up training to be a sleep consultant, but actually before that, I knew that I wanted to do something different from the nine to five. I wanted to have flexibility around my children. So I was always drawn to like health and wellness and that kind of world. I trained to do the baby massage, but that as a business was wasn't doing that well, to be honest with you.


Louis - 00:03:28:

So tell me more about that. When you say it wasn't doing that well, what do we mean?


Rosey - 00:03:33:

Yeah. So I think the model didn't really work that well. To advertise baby massage classes, they're first of all, only going to be local because you can only do so much as a person. You're delivering your product, your service yourself and getting the word out to people locally, locally, not that easy. And also with that kind of product, it tends to be, it's not a product, it's a service. They would just do the one class or the course of classes, so like 10 classes, and then that's it. And you'd never see them again. So you're constantly having to try and find new people for the funnel. And it's very much brand new parents. They're tired, they're distracted, they're unreliable. I only mean that in the nicest way. So you'd often have classes where there'd be only half the people there and so on and so forth. But they all spoke about sleep quite a lot. So we would have a part at the end where everyone was chatting and socializing and sleep came up and I was really interested in it because I'd helped my daughter sleep better. And then I realized there was a niche and I'm so glad I did because that spark literally changed everything my whole life.


Louis - 00:04:48:

Let me just dig into that a bit more, that first business. It was baby massage, especially newborns, right? Where like you massage them, is it to help them with winds as well as just relax them and help them sleep? Was it all this type?


Rosey - 00:05:01:

It's all of this stuff. So the way that you would set it up is you'd have, I would lead the class and I would have a doll, a massage doll, and you show the things, the type of massage you demonstrate to the people in the class. And you'd have maybe 10 people, 10 parents. They're normally mums, but sometimes dads. And they would do half an hour max of actual massage. And the babies obviously would need to be in a good mood to do it. So you've obviously got that. They're unreliable, never worked with children and animals. So you've got that hurdle and then people needing to turn up, filling the classes, working out my costs. I'd have to spend on a venue. It's my time. It's everything. And actually I was like, this isn't a career. This is Kind of maybe a side hustle, but it was never going to be like a big business, a thriving business that I wanted, I don't think.


Louis - 00:05:59:

How long did it take you to realize that? What was the-


Rosey - 00:06:03:

Not long, like six months.


Louis - 00:06:05:

Okay. There is something very interesting that you said already about the audience. You said, jokingly, but actually not, never work with kids or animals. They are unrightable. And then before that, you were saying that that specific audience that you were after, like new parents, were actually very distracted and a lot of shit happening in their life. From your perspective, what would you say is the lesson there for you and then for folks listening in terms of picking the right people to work with and the right customers, the right audience?


Rosey - 00:06:30:

You need to have somebody who really needs and wants your product. So, for example, with baby massage, I think it's a nice to have is one of those things. It's like, What could we do this week that'd be really nice to do with the baby? Yeah, there's benefits like it can help them with wind and relaxing and all this stuff and bonding. I don't think it's an essential purchase. Whereas I feel like the difference with sleep is sleep is just life changing. If you're not sleeping, you're on the floor. It is just, it can be horrendous. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture. So I think those parents are more reliable customers because they have the pain point and they have a really strong pain point. Whereas somebody who's looking to buy baby massage classes, isn't going to have that same motivation.


Louis - 00:07:24:

Yeah, I completely agree with you. That's actually spot on, right? Picking folks who are really struggling about something, the painkillers versus the vitamins. And that you're able to reach. And as you said, the other part of it was like the product as well. So not only the pain points, the problems you were solving were, as you said, nice to have. They were not a must-have. Sleep deprivation can lead to divorce, can lead to big unhappiness, can lead to unhealthy kids, unhealthy parents. It's even gaining weight, obesity. There's so many things when you don't sleep well. So definitely this avoidance of all of those. So you had the massage was a nice to have. But also on the other side, the way you had to teach it had to be offline, right? Like in real life, because you can't really teach massage over a screen. So you had this kind of intersection of the two things that made it very difficult for you.


Rosey - 00:08:14:

Yeah. Yes. And it wasn't scalable. Even if. For example, I had managed to fill every class. There was a huge demand. I still could only get to a certain point and then I wouldn't be able to scale anymore because it's just me. And yeah, you can do, I think there are some people who have franchises and they get other people doing it, but I don't feel, especially like in the current climate where things are much more online, a lot of things, that it would have worked. And actually, thank God, because during COVID, I wouldn't have been able to do it at all.


Louis - 00:08:46:

How many years before COVID did you switch to the sleep?


Rosey - 00:08:49:

Oh God, no, quite a long time before, but it just occurred to me that I feel like the world started to move more online. And when COVID hit, actually, I had really established all of my online courses and I'd established my voice within the Instagram community. So I already had, I was already in a great position for when people were at home with some people, money that they weren't spending elsewhere and problems that they weren't spending elsewhere. They felt that they had time to spend their attention and their focus on.


Louis - 00:09:23:

So you mentioned before we go to that new business that is working way better, you said you still managed to get people to get customers in for that massage business. So how were you marketing what you were doing then?


Rosey - 00:09:37:

Facebook was a good one for me. I was marketing on local mums groups. So I can go on to this with my current business as well. But one of the ways I realized, one of the most effective ways to reach people in the local community is to find these online groups. So you tend to have them for each area. So I'm London based and all the different parts of London, you'll tend to find that you'll have Kensington , Chelsea mums, North London mums, all of these kind of different parts of London. And some of them are parent groups, some of them are dad groups as well, less so, it should be more. But anyway, advertising on those honestly was the best way. And then if people would tag their friends and word of mouth, I think if you're running something quite locally, then word of mouth is important as well, like nurseries and schools, local places. I actually put up flyers. It honestly feels crazy to me now because of my current business, I would never do print, never, because it just doesn't work for my business. And I think the money that I would spend on a print ad, I could put into Facebook or Instagram ads. So for me, it'd be crazy to spend budget there. But at the time that I do think that works, like, you know, put it in the dry cleaners window, like the shop, the local shop Yeah, it feels strange to think of that time now.


Louis - 00:10:59:

Yeah, it always does. So did you take that decision to switch pretty fast after you started to hear the same things about sleep from your customers? What was the transition like?


Rosey - 00:11:10:

Yeah, I did decide pretty quickly and I decided to train as a sleep consultant. And in the meantime, I thought, you know what, I'm a bit sick of trying to organize these classes. It's not going that well. So what I'll do in the meantime is I'll advertise a one-to-one service. So I did go to see people one-to-one with their babies so I could charge a higher fee, but individual. So I kind of made a little bit less, but not that much less than I would for a group class. So I was like, actually, this works quite well. So I did some one-to-ones for a bit while I was training. And yeah, Then I just stopped and then I really threw myself into the sleep world.


Louis - 00:11:52:

How long did it take you to train?


Rosey - 00:11:54:

Not very long. So it was a course where you did some in-person training and then it was a lot of coursework. So it was across, probably four or five months. And then I think I qualified in the January and I'd already set up the business. So I'd already set up my, well, I said set up the business. I'd set up a Facebook page and that is where I really started everything. Facebook is what kicked everything off for me.


Louis - 00:12:22:

It's definitely the channel at the time for your group, every month spending time on Facebook and desperate to make their newborn sleep. And then from the other side, like the ad perspective and all of that, it's quite easy to reach to moms and all because it's quite easy to get to them, I suppose. Before we go to that successful business, I know I keep digging into this one, but it's interesting to hear the other side. How did you feel at the time? So you had a young child.


Rosey - 00:12:53:

I had two, actually.


Louis - 00:12:54:

Two young kids. How did it feel overall before you kind of knew, okay, this is fucking much better of a business than the previous one?


Rosey - 00:13:03:

I guess I didn't know that it was going to be as successful as it has been. And every day I don't understand how this has happened. But I knew that there was something in it and I could make some money and I could have a flexible lifestyle. And that was really important to me. So I actually started training. When I was pregnant with my second child. And by the time she was a baby, well, actually, no, I set up my Instagram page when I was pregnant with her, but it wasn't focused on sleep. It was, I called it Just Chill Mama, right? So we had the Just Chill Baby Massage. Just Chill Baby Sleep is my current business. I called my Instagram page Just Chill Mama because I didn't know whether the sleep stuff was going to work. And I was like, I've got baby massage. I'm training in baby sleep. I also love nutrition and I love working out and all these things were like going around my mind. So I thought I'm going to give it a name where if this does hit off and it does become a success, I can talk about anything to do with parenthood. I didn't know that it was going to be successful. I felt hopeful, but I just thought this is going to be something that I can do around my kids. It will earn me enough money that I can contribute towards our family and our children. And I thought, well, I'm going to give it a name. And I thought, which I share with my husband and everything will be okay. That's all I thought really.


Louis - 00:14:27:

There was no major anxiety about it. Like you just followed the flow in a sense, you just went with it?


Rosey - 00:14:34:

Yeah, I think when I first, first started, I needed to get my first sleep client after I'd done my course. And I was advertising on Facebook, not paid ads. I didn't do paid ads for a long time, but advertising. And every morning I would say to my husband, take the kids, take the babies. I'm going to sit on Facebook. I'm going to search for anyone who's been talking about sleep deprivation in these groups. I joined, no joke, every mum group in London that I could find on Facebook. And other places in the country as well. So like Cambridge , Oxford Mums, Mums in Yorkshire, like all these different groups. And every morning I would search and see, and there would inevitably be somebody who was saying something my baby's not slept, what do I do? And instead of answering them directly, I was quite clever, I think, well, obviously it worked. I started creating videos. So I knew that video was popular media and it was starting to be used more and I'm smart enough to know that. So I started creating videos around topics that I knew people were talking about. One of them that's key is early waking. So parents always talking about my baby wakes up at five, my toddler wakes up at five. So I was like, right, I'm going to make this video, have it on my Facebook page. And then when somebody talks about this in one of these groups, I will just do a soft sell. I won't go with a hard sell. I will say you might find this video really interesting. Comment on it if you've got any questions. And that's where I started. And then it just blew up.


Louis - 00:16:11:

That's fantastic. Let's break down that approach a bit. And maybe forgetting about the medium of the channel itself, and more the principle behind it for folks listening. Like what I like about what you just said is this is what it fucking takes to get started. It means sitting in front of your computer for hours and looking for individual people. It's not about scaling. It's not about ads. It's not about any of those big fucking thing. It's literally just trying to help out as many people as possible in a relevant way. And obviously knowing at the end that there's something there. I really like the fact that you seem to have very strong intuition about stuff. And I don't know if this is something that is easy to teach as well. Well, you seem to have kind of seen the trend of video at the time, the trend like Facebook, Instagram, sleep, like knowing that customers were like talking about it. And so your intuition was right again. What would be your number one advice for folks listening? About this intuition, about looking around and feeling that thing could be worth pursuing.


Rosey - 00:17:13:

I think if you have a feeling and you have an instinct, you have to act on it. And I think a lot of people procrastinate and the opposite of that. So I do things. It's interesting. You've picked up on that, like my intuition, because I, If I feel something, I just do it. So you might find it interesting to know I have never scheduled content, right? I have nearly 270,000 followers on Instagram. I have never scheduled a post. I have never written a post in advance other than for a brand. I do everything with what I feel because otherwise for me, it doesn't flow and it doesn't work and the energy doesn't work. I like to be reactive. So if I see someone talking about a problem, I will make a video or I will do something reactive. And I know that doesn't work for everyone, but it's how I've worked and it's how I continue to work.


Louis - 00:18:05:

I completely relate to this. It's exactly the way I do things as well. I've tried to schedule things in the past. Doesn't work. I've tried to schedule. I send daily emails in the newsletter and I can't schedule them. Like it just doesn't work. I need to feel what is it that today I want to share and I want to teach people and whatnot. So completely connects with me. But it goes back to the way humans are wired. The system one thinking versus system two. The system one is 95% of the time our brain is just constantly like on an automated mode. And our gut feeling, we literally have neurons in our digestive system, is actually not just a saying. Like it's true. So our intuition is usually right. But I think this is where you've done so well is that you've listened to it and you acted on it. And that's kind of difficult to teach. But do you believe that anyone can really this or do you really think some people are just not made to follow their intuition at all?


Rosey - 00:19:01:

Oh, such a hard question. Kind of 50-50. So I think there are a lot of people out there who aren't reaching their potential who probably could with the right guidance and some encouragement. But there are some people who aren't made for social media. And I say that with the utmost respect, they're probably made for something else that I couldn't do. So when I started out, there weren't really any other sleep consultants online. And now the market is saturated. So there are people who sell the courses to do what I do. And there's hundreds and I get messages from them daily or regularly. Saying, Rosey, how do you do what you do? Because I really want to do it. And what do you think about this? And what do you think about that? And I'm like, first of all, I'm not your mentor, you're not paying me, so I'm not going to answer you. But also, I can't teach you to know that what you're sharing isn't appealing. And people talk a lot about, oh, the algorithms against me and all this stuff. I'm like, no, it's not. You're just not posting things that people are looking at and are interested in. And maybe people who are listening would disagree with me. Maybe they know more about the algorithm, the big bad algorithm than I do. But what I know is that I don't take offense. If I put out a post and it gets really low engagement, I'm like, fine, move on. We'll just do the next thing. You can't take offense. You have to have a thick skin. And that is also, I would say that's one of my superpowers because I have a big following. With that comes criticism. With that will sometimes come disappointment. And you might be like really excited about some idea you have. You send out an email or you create a post or you do something and it's like tumbleweed. No one answers. And you think, just got to move on.


Louis - 00:20:50:

I fucking love this. I really, really do. I'm not just saying this because Again, you were saying, yeah, you were the first or probably one of the first online sleep consultants, right? And then the trend caught on and way more people are doing this. Like you do have a track record of anticipating things really well. You were one of the first online consultant and you spotted that when people were talking in your class and you set up this Facebook page and Instagram that wasn't that big. You've done like the good old dirty work of going to each Facebook group and learn and posting videos when again, at the time, the format wasn't as maybe sexy as it is today. So like you have this track record of spotting trends and being early, which to me comes down to your ability to listen to your intuition and fucking act upon it very fast without too many emotions attached to it. Like, as you just said, if it doesn't work, let's move on. Do you think it's a fair?


Rosey - 00:21:44:

Yeah, exactly.


Louis - 00:21:45:

Assessments?


Rosey - 00:21:46:

Yeah, definitely. I think that I've built a network of connections with other expert influencers as well. And we sometimes meet up and we talk and they're in different industries, but like nutrition and midwives and people like that. And we talk about it. And a lot of them are really like down on, they say, oh, I put this out and people aren't responding. And I just think, come on guys, get a grip. Sometimes I really almost feel like someone needs to slap some of these people and say, you're doing really well. You can't get bogged down in each and every post and everything you create. I'm always looking for the next thing. And that's why I found you on LinkedIn because LinkedIn is my new platform.


Louis - 00:22:33:

Let's go back a bit in time. And let's go back to what you've done in those Facebook groups. So you joined each of them. And then every morning, your husband would take the kids for like how long?


Rosey - 00:22:46:

Before he went to work. So like from 7 till 8.30.


Louis - 00:22:50:

Okay, so you had 90 minutes. To fucking do something that you felt was the most productive, efficient use of your time, right?


Rosey - 00:22:59:

Yeah.


Louis - 00:23:00:

And you just search on every Facebook group, you type the same type of keywords like sleep or lack of sleep and early wakings and stuff like that. Right. And then based on those questions or those comments, you would first record a video. Right. When it's something new. And then you would reply.


Rosey - 00:23:20:

Yeah, or I'd have a bank once I'd built up a few of the basic topics. And then sometimes I would say, sometimes you would get somebody saying, does anyone know a sleep consultant or someone could help me? And then I might say, I'd love to help you. If you're interested in finding out a bit more about me and my style, this might help you. So then I started, some of them were a bit more direct, but still I've never been really into like hard selling things. It's always been quite a soft sell because I think, When you're working with tired people who are emotional, there's a lot of feelings tied up with what's going on. And there's a lot of guilt and people can find it really hard to ask for help. And also a lot of people don't have a lot of money. And I feel like it's a big investment for them. And I'm confident in my service, right? But because sleep is a biological function, I can never give 100% guarantee. And I think anyone who is giving 100% like these money back guarantee type posts that you see is a bit of a red flag because you can't give that. You can't. It's a baby. You might speak to them and then you find out, I don't know, this baby has a medical condition or they are neurodiverse and there's something else going on or they have sleep apnea and they need an ENT doctor to see them. Or it might be that the parents. The parent actually isn't ready to change what they're doing and they just want somebody to wave a magic wand. It's quite complex. So I wouldn't live with myself if I was one of these people. And I've seen these adverts from other sleep consultants. I guarantee your baby will sleep through in three days or you get your money back. That's not my style.


Louis - 00:25:08:

You really come across as someone who is very confident about herself, which is fantastic. That's the way it should be. I completely agree with what you just said. I want to ask you about that confidence briefly after that. But this kind of money back guarantee stuff implies that you can, as a consultant, can control every single thing on the other side, like the customer side, right? Like you can't be in their house. You can't make them behave a certain way. And as you said, you can't control how the baby is and whatever. So this is pure lies. Like at the end of the day, it's a lie. You cannot guarantee it, right, by default. So that's something I teach and I talk about a lot, which is confidence. To avoid sounding like a snake or salesperson. Always back your benefits to the things you can directly help them to do. And it means that you're going to have to make peace with the fact that you can't claim stuff that you can't directly help people to do. So, for example, last weekend, I ran a workshop for creative entrepreneurs. And the key was I was telling them that PK benefits that you can directly tie your services to. And for the workshop, I was telling them, for example, I'll give you a bit more confidence, a bit more clarity, a bit more joy. Hopefully, you'll figure out who your segment is. I never go further than what I can directly help them to do. And usually that helps to not sound like a fucking snake or salesperson.


Rosey - 00:26:25:

Yeah, exactly. I will say to people, I can guarantee me and my team will listen to you. We'll give you practical advice. We'll support you. We will do the best that we can, but I can't guarantee you results. And a lot of people want to hear, they want you to say, I can guarantee you because I'm spending my money, but I'm like, sorry, that's not me.


Louis - 00:26:45:

Before we talk about LinkedIn and what's next or whatever, let's go back to this Facebook group. What would you say was the conversion rate from replying to a comment to actually signing that person as a client? Like roughly, obviously, I don't mean exact metrics.


Rosey - 00:26:58:

In the early days, before I got my first client, I must, I, God knows how many messages I wrote on Facebook. It must have been like maybe 500. I don't know. Like just that's off the top of my head. And then I got this first client. And then every client I got, I got them to write the review because I knew how important that was from the very beginning. Because then you've got something you can share. Then it's on there. Nowadays, I have Trustpilot. But in the old days, all I had was Facebook reviews. There wasn't any other review platform I was using. So I knew that was really important. And then. I would say they started converting more often. And then it was only really when I started Instagram that then suddenly I had more demand than I could fill. And this is just, at this point I was doing one-to-one phone calls. So this was, at this point there was no online course. It was just me doing phone calls. And then I brought somebody else on who kind of came into my life who was perfect at the time. And she's still working with me because I couldn't fulfill the calls anymore. So there was a tipping point where it went, where I was doing active outreach all the time. And then suddenly I almost didn't even need to do it because there were so many, I was just keeping up my Instagram page.


Louis - 00:28:18:

How long did it take from those first 500 messages without a sale all the way to like feeling like you can't even, you can't handle the demand anymore? Roughly.


Rosey - 00:28:28:

I'd say about six months.


Louis - 00:28:31:

Oh, wow. Okay.


Rosey - 00:28:31:

It was quick. It was really quick. Instagram, I didn't use it. I didn't really know much about it. And my friends said, you need to go on here. So I got on there, set up this Just Chill Mama. And then I realized it was going to be about sleep and I started posting things. But the next part, and I think this is key with how I really catapulted my business. I have a really, what some people might call sad, knowledge of celebrities. Okay. So growing up when I was at university afterwards, even now I still watch trash TV, reality shows, all of this stuff. And some of my friends would say, oh God, even my husband, he says, how can you watch that? But I said, actually, I know who they all are and they have big followings and they are having babies. And there was one of them who no one else would have known. No one else in my friendship group or my peers would have even known who she was. But I followed her on Instagram and she wrote, I'm struggling. I'm struggling with my baby. Could anyone recommend someone? And I DM'd her. And at the time I probably only had 500 followers and I helped her. And then she shouted about me on her Instagram. And then I got to like 1,500 followers really quickly. And then I started helping other celebrities. And I realized that's the way that you get the big numbers quickly, essentially influencer marketing, but without basically I was giving them my service. And then I had my following and then it was nurturing them in other ways as well.


Louis - 00:30:07:

I knew before the interview that you were saying that you would be sharing very good stuff. I didn't know what exactly, but this is really good again. So you have this unhealthy or maybe not anymore. I don't know if you're maybe too busy to follow or maybe just a lifetime thing that you like to do, but you really follow celebrities and stuff like the Gossip magazine. Is that the type of stuff we're talking about?


Rosey - 00:30:27:

Yeah, yeah.


Louis - 00:30:28:

Is it still the case today or a bit less?


Rosey - 00:30:30:

A bit less. I do just know who all these people are. And... Like the other women on my team say, I don't know who these people are. And I'll say, I'm working with so-and-so. And they say, who's that? I say, oh, she was on a show eight years ago, but these people retain these followings and it's their audience is a copy of what I want because the people who follow them are the people who are my customers. It's a like, like by like audience and it's ready-made sat there waiting. And people love to hear who influencers are talking about. And it's the same as getting someone to wear a watch or a handbag, but actually it's selling something that is helpful. And I feel good about it as well.


Louis - 00:31:16:

Okay, so there's a lot to unpack because that's really good. So you had this, I would say, unfair advantage compared to other friends or whatever, where you really knew way more about celebrities than the average. And then you naturally knew that because you had a small following at the time, by just literally piggybacking on their audience in some ways, that will help you. So you offered your services for free to them?


Rosey - 00:31:39:

Yeah, to celebrities, so gifted.


Louis - 00:31:41:

In exchange of basically, look, if it's working out, do you mind sharing your experience?


Rosey - 00:31:45:

Well, do you know what? At the beginning, and even now, I don't really ask them because... It's most genuine if you just say, I'd love to help you. And also, so the other part of this is I am now an influencer myself and I do work for brands myself and people come to me and say, and funny enough, I had someone on LinkedIn yesterday who said, I'm a LinkedIn coach. I'd like to help you if you mention me on your Instagram page because he'd seen, right? Yeah. And I'm like, no way, because I can't promise you that I'm going to mention you because if I have a conversation with you and you don't help me and I think your advice is crap, why am I going to talk about you? Yeah. So I feel like you can't get somebody to promise to talk about you because ethically it doesn't really work. And if you made them promise and then you made them talk about you when you hadn't actually helped them, it's not genuine. And therefore you ain't getting a good response anyway.


Louis - 00:32:47:

Yeah, that's really good insights. Again, the last thing you said before was it's super interesting. You said that the audience of the celebrities are basically your audience because they follow the celebrities and therefore they have it's the same signal like they are a bit like you. Is that what you were saying?


Rosey - 00:33:04:

Yeah, actually, if you look at them, so I'm trying to think of an example of somebody. So Joe Wicks Wicks Wicks, everyone knows who Joe Wicks is, the exercise guy.


Louis - 00:33:12:

No, yeah, yeah.


Rosey - 00:33:13:

He's written books.


Louis - 00:33:14:

Let me describe it. Because that's in the UK, people will know Joe Wicks quite well. But I don't know if maybe in the US, Canada, whatever, they would know. So I would just describe him briefly, just to Google him. He's the body coach. He's a British fitness coach, TV presenter, obviously an influencer, author. He has those long curly hair. He's good looking. Not like me, but close enough. So, okay.


Rosey - 00:33:38:

So I've helped Joe and we've done a live together and he's honestly, he's amazing. And he is the most genuine influencer I've ever worked with. But anyway, his following, similar to mine, and I don't know that for sure, but because he's not giving me his analytics, as you can understand. But I imagine, so my following is 98% female, age 25 to 45. I imagine he probably has more men, but I still would imagine most fitness influencers have mostly women and they'll be around the same age. And I just know that. So I'm like, when I did my live with him, I got a ton of followers and he mentioned me another couple of times and I got a ton of followers. And he's got, for anyone who doesn't know, he has three small children. So we were talking about his second child at the time, but at the time he had a baby and a toddler. People were following him for that content anyway, because they were interested. And he did. So he does like fitness and food. And he was talking a lot about weaning his baby as well. So, obviously, if he's doing content around a baby and their food, it's the same. If people are interested in that, they've probably got a baby. He's struggling with sleep. So it's like, like for like audience. He's a good example because he's a big one, but there's a lot of them who've been in like TV soaps, like what we would call in the UK, trash TV. I haven't done any of the Real Housewives. So if anyone in the US watches the Real Housewives, it's like that. All these shows, we have one, The Only Way is Essex. We have Made in Chelsea. These are people that I've helped.


Louis - 00:35:12:

There is a lesson there because one of my mentors years ago told me, you need to make peace with the fact that when people follow you, buy from you, in some way, they want to become like you. Not in every dimension, but at least in one. And that happened to me. I was after a broader audience to the podcast. It was not really a very solid one. And slowly but surely, the key people I'm helping, I'm working with are basically people that could have been me two, three, five, 10 years ago. And there's always something they want to emulate. So I completely relate to what you said there. This kind of disbelief, they believe the same thing in some ways, and they have roughly the same story. Usually it works like that. Which brings me to LinkedIn, right? You mentioned. Again, I do not know why you're planning to go on LinkedIn and you say it's the next thing. But let me have a guess. Maybe I'm completely wrong. But based on what I just said... It feels like maybe you're going on LinkedIn because you want to reach folks who want to become maybe sleep consultants or at least doing their own thing. And maybe as moms or parents who are busy and stuff like that.


Rosey - 00:36:21:

No, yes and no. So I never want to train people to do this because, oh, first of all, I don't want to create competitors, to be honest. But also I've seen so many people are doing that and then they charge thousands of pounds and then no one gets any clients. And I know that they'd come back to me and I wouldn't want that. But I do think LinkedIn is an untapped market because I've done my research and there's no one else in my industry who has a big following on LinkedIn. I search, I've done loads of search on it. There's just no one. So I have a space that I can dominate. Also, there's a lot of professional working parents and those parents are often more motivated to work on sleep because they're back at work and they want to have that kind of life and they're less likely to be, well, actually not necessarily, but sometimes you might get stay at home parents who are like, do you know what? We're happy just to embrace this and we'll just go with it. But the other thing is I do corporate support. And this is what I want to push. So we have actually worked behind the scenes with two big corporates. One, we provided our online courses as a staff benefit. So they bought them in bulk. And that was fantastic. And I can say who that was. It was Coventry Building Society. And we worked with Mondelez as well, who are big. And we provided a workshop to them in-house for parents. And I think this has huge potential. And I would like to look into that. So it's two sides to it. One is reaching parents for our one-to-one and online courses, but also reaching wellbeing teams, HR teams, I think, There's a lot of potential there.


Louis - 00:38:05:

Yeah, that's very clever. Yeah, again, I think it's yet another instance and evidence of you spotting something that is not done by others, which is also something I like to talk about a lot, which is this kind of looking for the white space, right? As humans, vision is our most powerful sense and we are trained to see danger, right? To spot the danger. But we're not, we didn't evolve to spot what's not there because that wasn't part of survival. And so what you're doing here is you're going against nature, like always to see what is not there, who is not here, where are they, where could I be when they're not? That's very, very clever. So... If you had to give an advice, like the number one tip about what I just said to folks listening, whether they are working in a house or not, like, how would you advise them to pick that white space?


Rosey - 00:38:56:

God, it's so hard. If we're talking social media, there's so many platforms now and it can feel overwhelming. I also have a YouTube channel, which I've been doing some work on. It's got 9,000 subscribers. It's decent. I feel like YouTube is quite saturated with people who do what I do. Facebook and Instagram, definitely. So I managed to look where people weren't. And I guess it depends on your niche and your industry. But I do believe that everyone has something in them that's different to someone else. We're all very humans, we're very similar, but we have talents and things. So it's working out what your niche is and then finding a space to show people your niche and not be afraid to follow your gut and your intuition. And just, you have to act. This is like my number one piece of advice is you have to act. Do you know, I can't bear sitting in meetings with people and it's like, let's talk about this. We could do this and we could do that. I'm very much of the school. Let's just do it and we'll test it. Let's just do it. Okay, if you've got three ideas, let's do them all and we'll test them all and we see what works. And we just let the audience decide. It's easy. Well, not easy, but you know.


Louis - 00:40:07:

What's the one thing you've tested over the years that you really didn't believe would work or like were not sure at all that really surprised you?


Rosey - 00:40:15:

Actually, the bread and butter, the most successful part of my business is my online courses. And when we first launched them, I was quite worried because I thought, you know what? These are going to mean that nobody books a one-to-one call anymore and they're much cheaper. So I thought, oh God, if I don't sell that many and they replace the one-to-ones, am I making a really bad move? But actually it was the opposite. So the courses just flew off the shelf. They've been really successful. And actually organically, it's meant that the more courses I sell, the more the word gets out there. And then people want the one-to-ones anyway. I don't even promote a one-to-one service. It just organically grows because the nature of it is people, even though they've done an online course, actually they want more. So they still, there'll be always somebody who wants to speak to a person. And I thought the same actually with my book. I was like, oh God, so I bring out this book. But actually the book created more noise around the other stuff. So it all works together.


Louis - 00:41:17:

It's really interesting because that's one of the biggest things people tell me when I tell them I'm editing a book right now, like I'm nearly done with it, right? They're like, aren't you afraid that people are just going to pick up the book and do things themselves and then you don't have any clients? And I tell them, why do chefs write books? Why do they go on TV and fucking give recipes for free, right? It's the exact same thing. It's about acquisition. It's about being seen. And as you said, they read the book, they get introduced to your world, and then they might want something more. Personalized. Maybe they have nuances that they want to catch with someone who can really listen to them one-on-one. And it's just, that's why they write those books and that's why they're always on TV. So there's no point hiding what you know. People will want more than just knowledge. They want to like actual thing from the person to connect with and feeling they had something more help than just reading stuff.


Rosey - 00:42:08:

Yeah, exactly, exactly.


Louis - 00:42:10:

So, what would be your number one resource to recommend folks listening. It could be marketing related or not, but the thing that you would say helps you the most to market your business, to grow your business?


Rosey - 00:42:27:

Oh God, do you know what? I actually don't think there is like one particular resource. I feel like it's doing your own research and keeping up with what other people are doing and seeing how you can do it better.


Louis - 00:42:41:

When you mean other people, you mean competitors?


Rosey - 00:42:44:

Not necessarily in the same space, but for example, I watch a lot of other creators who might be creating other things, see what they're doing, sign up to their newsletters, look at their websites, look at their adverts, look at everything and just think, how could I apply that to what I'm doing? Because nothing really is a truly original idea there's always something somebody's maybe thought of but you can take things don't copy it I've had people try and copy me and I've sent them a cease and desist it's not nice right but you can take an idea and make it your own you can take you can be like this person sends really good emails and they send them a frequency which I like I enjoy I'm going to try and emulate that but I'll use my own topics and maybe I'll think about oh I like this style because it's mostly text and it feels really effective and it speaks to me I'll keep it maybe this length works for them because they've obviously got a big list so I'll do that so I think it's working with what you can see and making it better for you.


Louis - 00:43:48:

That's a very good answer. That's what I meant by resource in general. That's exactly the way I do it. I don't have a very set process, but I also follow that instinct of, okay, why did I just buy this? Or why did I just like that email? And what is this person doing and whatnot? So interviewing people like you is also a way for me to do this as well, to keep what are they doing? What type of stuff are they doing? What can I be influenced by? Okay, so you've mentioned quite a lot. I'm going to try to summarize what we said, okay? Quite, maybe a bit briefly, because there's so much you said. So you started selling baby massage stuff. It didn't work out really well. The audience wasn't that great. They were tired, didn't have necessarily much money, and they were unpredictable. You couldn't really do much with the kids and, you know, tired, whatever. And then the massage itself, you couldn't really teach that outside of an actual physical location. But then you started to hear from those customers. They were all kind of talking about sleep, and that felt like a more painful problem that everyone were talking about. You noticed that no one really was doing sleep consultants online. And so it took you only four months to train, set up a Facebook page, reply to comments, creating videos based on what people were asking in Facebook group regarding sleep. And as soon as you got your first social proof, testimonial and whatnot, things started to accelerate. And within six months, you had more demand that you can handle, and you had someone on board. And then you went. And then you went to Instagram. That's when you realized that there was an intersection between you and the celebs' kind of audiences. And you offered your services for free without expecting anything in return. Not trying to be like too salesy about it. And sellers started to share that they work with you, that they really like you. And that's when things accelerated again. And then, yeah, you did this, started online courses, even though you're not too sure about, because, you know, what if people don't need me anymore, but it proved to be the opposite. And your next move is LinkedIn, because you realize that the B2B space is a very interesting one to be in to sell. Like maybe, as you said, employees benefits and stuff. Is that a good summary?


Rosey - 00:45:55:

Yeah, that's perfect. You got it.


Louis - 00:45:57:

All right. That's it then. Rosey, it's been a pleasure. Where can people connect with you, learn more from you.


Rosey - 00:46:05:

I'm building my LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn, Rosey Davidson. Otherwise you can find me on Instagram, just_chill_mama, or my website, which is justchillbabysleep.co.uk.


Louis - 00:46:17:

Perfect.


Rosey - 00:46:18:

Amazing. Thank you.