Everyone Hates Marketers | No-BS Marketing & Brand Strategy Podcast

With ai. The only reason behind writing something is because somebody has told it to do so, right?

Whereas when a human creates a piece of art, whether that's a book or whatever, what humans are really interested in is the reasons behind why that was created. there's very little new under the sun. but the new stuff comes from those connections. So. Stop trying to write a perfect first draft, stop trying to take it so seriously, and stop thinking that it's all gotta come from you. And I don't think, AI will be able to do that. And it can, if it does get to the point where it can do that, and it has its own reasons, I think perhaps we're all fucked anyway.

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Bonzo and welcome to another episode of Everyone Hates marketers.com, the podcast for people sick of aggressive bullshitty marketing.

I'm your host. Louis Goni. In today's episode, you learn how to write a short book without the fluff, so you can stand the fuck out. My guest today helps Shai, but fabulous business owners write life-changing books. So they stand out like a flamingo at a penguin party. Very nice. Uh, she's goes written, edited, launch books for a lot of successful business owners in the uk. She's also coached them to write and market their own books. More. Interestingly though, uh, she has miniature ships who are total dicks. Apparently she has chickens and she lives in the cottage. Uh, it's all wonderful. I can't wait to hear about that part. Vicky Quinn Fraser, welcome.

Oh, thank you so much Louis. Thank you for having me.

why don't, uh, you tell me a bit about. who shouldn't try to write a book

[00:01:24] Don't write a book if...
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I have heard a lot from various places on the internet, people who. Teach this kind of thing. a book will lend you an error of credibility. That really, I hate that really pisses me off. It's like, no, a book is a booster. It's a, it's a foundation. It's like a, it's like a frame for your credibility.

It's like writing a book to kind of make yourself seem as if you can do something that you can't. Those people should not be writing a book. If you haven't got the experience. If you haven't got the skills already, don't write about it. That doesn't mean to say that you can't write a book at all. It's like, write about where you are at the moment.

Write about where you are in your journey, but don't write a book that kind of positions you as something that you're not. And I do see that happening. I see people kind of thinking, oh, you know, I'm, I'm right at the beginning of my journey. How am I gonna get more clients? How am I gonna make myself seem like more than I am?

And it's like trying to jump too far. Ahead. So is, so that I would say those people shouldn't be writing a book. People who, just want their book to be a glorified business card. I think that's a waste of trees. and it's like I've heard people say, oh, I'm, I've written this book. It doesn't matter if anybody reads it or not.

And that just makes me sad. It's like, well, it does matter if somebody reads it or not. It's like, why bother if, if you don't want people to read it? I. Don't get that. so if you're just writing a book for a marketing tick box exercise, or because you want it as like a badge of honor or whatever, or something to flog at the back of a room, I would say to those people, you know, part of me is like, do what you want.

But I would say, don't come to me. Don't come to somebody who is serious about helping to create more quality books for the world, because there's enough shit out there already. So those people, I would say, don't write a book.

So you have a concept that you call micro books. you know, the way people say, these books should have been a blog post and micro books, just well packaged blog posts.

I mean, some of them maybe. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit here and say, you know, a micro book couldn't have been a blog post as well. But I think books like tangible physical books, so I'm not just getting people to write eBooks, I'm getting them to write actual physical books as well.

Um, and the thing about a tangible book is it has longevity, it sticks in your head. It can be the kind of thing that you don't just stick in your pocket, but you scribble notes on in the margin as well. and that you can't do that with a blog post. Like There's loads of articles out there, I save them.

I sometimes come back and read them again. But if there's an idea that really interests me, an idea that I really, you know, I want to dig into and I want to think about a little bit more, that's where I would be like, okay, well is there a book on this? Is there something that I can take away and read, fold the pages down, scribbling the margins and, and kind of just get a little bit deeper, because even though.

Like you say, it could just be, it could just be a blog post in a book form. I think you've still got that bit of extra space and depth to go deeper than a blog post, and I think the act of writing it as a book instead of a blog post encourages to dive, encourages you to dive even deeper into it as well.

I think it is important, right? So it's not just the words on the page that are important, it's also the package and the way it's formatted and presented that will give more perceived value to the, to the reader. And yes, in that fact, it is important because, If you take two years, three years to write a book or 10 years or whatever, like, it's, it's your life story.

It's your, it's the, the insight that you've gathered throughout, uh, it makes sense to just package them in a way that people can really value. Right.

another reason why I think it's important is like anyone can check out a blog post, right? Anyone can write a blog post and anyone frequently does. There's a lot of nonsense out there on the internet. there are also a lot of crap books out there.

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie, but I think when somebody sits down and says, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna take this idea, I'm gonna really dig into it and I'm gonna put it into a book format. We think about it differently. Like the writer thinks about it differently, the reader thinks about it differently, and it's a hard thing to do, not just like to sit down and write a book.

And I know that you'll recognize this cause I know you've been writing a book. I've written many books. It's always a difficult thing to do, and anyone who tells you it's easy is either lying or the. Doing something that I don't, I don't know what they're doing. but like that, that kind of act of writing a book, it changes you because you're like, I've done this thing that, you know, very few people actually do.

Like even in the age of democratization of, of self-publishing and all the rest of it, still very few people write a book and writing a book and getting it finished and published and out there is an act of bravery. Um, it's a really hard thing to do. It's a cool thing to do and it kind of makes you think, God, what else could I do?

You know, I've done this thing. What else could I do? And I think for that reason as well, it's really important to think about it in terms of don't just put out digital content. What else can we do with it and how can we take it deeper?

So there are between 500,000 and 1 million books published worldwide every year. I'm gonna do quick math. So that's one out of 8,000 people publish a book every year. So you get, you put that in a stadium of 80,000 seats. Chances are there's only 10 in that stadium. Who actually have written a publisher book.

[00:05:56] Step 1: Figure out what YOU want to say (the author's journey)
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So that puts things into perspective. And as you said, how many of them are shitty books, you know, that someone wrote in a weekend? And it's just not, the layout is poor, it's, it's, it is just harsh shit throughout. So then, you know, you remove that and then you have even less people. before we dive into how to actually do it, because I know a lot of folks listening wanna do it, have been thinking about it, a lot of people listening are entrepreneurs, business owners, freelancers, service providers. And they want, they are interested in that idea of a micro book cuz it's shorter than a 60,000 word type of book. What is the first step? What should they do first?

First step is figure out what it is that you want to say. Like have you got something that is important enough to you to write a micro book? And yes, a micro book is shorter. It's, you know, maybe 10 to 15,000 words, but that's still a lot of work. You know, it's still a big thing to do. So I would say what is the key message that you've got to share, and what is it about that message?

What is your take on it that makes it a little bit different, that isn't gonna make it just another, just another thing that they could have found anywhere else on the internet. So that, that I would say is the first step. If you can talk passionately about something for 25, 30 minutes, and really bring your angle to it, then that, I think is the first step.

how do you know then that it's a good point of view, something that is spicy enough that you can actually make a book, how do you know?

So is there, I guess there's a few ways it's like, are you, are you regularly having conversations with people about this topic? Um, and debates, you know, not, not flaming rous, but like debates, are you challenging other people's thinking with, with what you are, with what you're saying? So is there something that you have that you believe about your subject that makes people go either, I don't like that app.

Or, huh, I've never thought about it like that before. So is there some, are you talking to people, are you getting a bit of attention in terms of, you know, those conversations that you're having? It's not just people kind of nodding along and going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that I think is a good place to start those conversations to have.

to reverse engineer what you say on your point of view on this is, you believe that micro books are a very good way to be authority for the right people. And so you challenge kind of the traditional. uh, way of publishing a very, very long winded book and, there's other ways to do it.

So that's a good example. I'm just gonna read, there's a, um, you probably know her, uh, Wes Kao, I don't dunno how to pronounce her last name. K a o. She used to work for Set Godin, and she, I think, Works for Maven now, which is a cohort based course thing. anyway, in her blog post while ago, I saved it. Uh, she says, A point of view is a perspective others can disagree with.

It's a belief you feel strongly about and are willing to advocate for. It's your thesis about topics in your real of expertise. The goal is to share your truth and start the conversation, not to aim for a hundred percent agreement from everyone you come in contact with.

I don't, I don't know why other people go into this, but I don't want people to agree with me all the time. Like, I want my point of view to be challenged. So if somebody has a dissenting idea and they can give me, you know, a coherent argument or a coherent point of view, I want to hear that.

And that's why I read books. I read books by people that I disagree with as well. I read books about stuff that I don't agree with. because the whole point of a book is to transform somebody right? By the end of the book.

That person wants to be slightly different to how they were before. So whether that is like giving them a new skill or giving them a new way of thinking about the world, or how can you change people's minds? And I love the idea of books as conversations and not just as somebody standing there and going, here is what I think this is gospel.

this is the way things are. The one true truth. It's like, no, this is my point of view. this is what I believe. This is why I believe it.

[00:09:08] Don't forget to add this element to your business book
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You do wanna serve customers and people you do wanna kind of solve their problems, their pains or whatever. But on the other hand, you also need to like be. Yourself and bring that kind of ethos, that, essence, that point of view that makes it spicy.

Right? And it's always the tension I feel is, is happening a lot. And too many people who, who write books that are boring or do things that are boring, that no one notice, just really forget about that side to be yourself and just, do and say stuff that everyone else is without challenging anything.

And that's where storytelling comes in as well. Your experience. Yes. Your point of view, but also a story. Because a lot of people think of non-fiction books, especially business books as being, oh, it has to be a lesson. It has to be a how to, it has to be this, that, and the other.

I would much rather hear how somebody came to learn this thing and, and the experiences they had, and the struggles they had, and weave that story into it when I write about writing, I write about my struggles with focus, with adhd, with all of that kind of thing.

And so I know that when other people read that, they're gonna be like, This person is not gonna just regurgitate all of the typical productivity and writing advice because it doesn't bloody work for me. She's gonna have tried a bunch of other stuff and she's gonna have come up with things and she's gonna have some suggestions that maybe I won't have tried.

And so there's that kind of bringing that personality in, telling those stories so that you can make the connection with the people that you want to connect with. you can leave behind that worry then about. I don't know. I know a lot of people, worry about getting yelled at.

They worry about people hating them. all of that kind of thing. I think when you start to tell your story and tell the truth of your story, that's when you can start to leave that behind because it's like, I'm not being controversial for the sake of it. You're not, trying to poke the bear.

You are just sharing your point of view. You are. True real life experience and people can't really argue with that. And, and when you put it out there, you will gather people towards you who have either had a similar experience or who feel like, oh, I wanna know more about this person, and are interested to, take that journey with you.

And I think it's that taking that journey with you rather than, standing there and yelling at people and hoping that they're just gonna agree with you.

Something that I've learned going into that topic a lot is that a good point of view is something that is there to serve. A specific group of people that you wanna serve, right? It's there to protect them. It's there to take their side and say, Hey, I'm with you. And yes, others outside of that group won't necessarily understand or agree, but that's not the point.

Right? So that's the first thing that I think was, is super powerful. The second one is a concept called the shadow of the future, which basically tells you that, Species, animals in general, in the animal kingdom who want to collaborate with one another, show, that in the short term they're willing to take a hit.

giving something away or whatever in order to be trusted in the long term and point of view is, is just like that. You are willing to say, Hey, I disagree with this. I challenge this, which is the short term thing. You're willing to take hate for it, but in return, the people that you seek to serve will trust you more because you're showing term behavior.

it's deeply ingrained I believe in our DNA and the way we are as animals first. Right. I think the main difference between boring brands, boring books, and actually things that are sticky.

[00:11:48] The one question to ask to figure out your point-of-view.
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going back to that step, when you work with a client, when you work with someone, How do you do it then? Like what question do you ask them?

people are always nervous as well, and that's a barrier they've always got that inner voice being like, well, who are you to tell your story? I start off by asking them about where they've come from, how they've come.

To this idea why it's important to them. And I think like that, getting to the heart of why this is important to them helps them to forget the other stuff, and it helps 'em to forget about, what other people are gonna think. Um, it helps 'em to get rid of that in inner voice. That's like, you're not a writer, you're not good enough to do this, that and the other.

Because as soon as you get to the heart of why is this thing important to you? they, it sets them off on this like, Oh, it's just like a reminder. Cause I I know that I sometimes forget, and that's why I love doing interviews like this because you'll remind me why I'm so passionate about what I do.

we tend to forget. It's like if we do something, if we've got an idea that we work on every day, we forget why it's important to us. And so when we sit down to write that book, I think something weird happens. It's like, oh, now I have to, now I have to be a writer and I have to write this book.

And you lose sight of the initial idea and the initial reason behind it. And so I take people back to that. It's like, why is this important to you? Tell me about it. You know, tell, tell, talk to me as if I've never seen it before. Um, I will disagree with people as well. I will poke them, I will ask them awkward questions.

Um, and I will have that debate with them. And it's like, you know, come on, tell me, convince me of this idea.

[00:12:56] Step 2: Who's going to read that book? (The reader's journey)
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Okay. What's the second?

The second is, to get them to, um, have a think about who's, reading the book.

So, I'd like to think about the, the writer journey is what we start with. Um, and the reader journey is what I go to next. So it's like, okay, you've got this idea. It's really important to you. Why should it be important to me? you know, what transformation do you want the reader to have by the time they get to the end of the book?

/ So I start them thinking about that. Then it's like, how do you, not just what do you want them to learn, but how do you want them to change? And this is a concept that. Carries from fiction into nonfiction, into any kind of storytelling. Like some, something has to change. Somebody has to change between the start and the end of the story, right?

That's, that's what we have to do. So in this, it's not so much a character that we're writing about, although it might be, but it's the reader. How is the reader gonna change? And then we're looking at how do we get them from. This point to this point over here, it's like, what do they need to know? And they don't need to worry at this point about structure, about the order of things, about, you know, oh, I need to have my table of contents ready.

It is simply how do I get the reader from here to here?

What type of change are we talking about?

for some people it's a change in mindset.

and this, one of the main reasons that I think about people writing micro books is because a micro book can be that first step before they actually learn a skill. It's like, well, actually, before they learn the skill, what do they need to know?

What do they need to understand? Do they need to change their mind about something? Because if somebody isn't in the, the frame of mind to learn a new skill or a, you know, a, a new. You know, a new whatever, then that there's just no point in trying to teach it to them. Right? So it's like, do they need, what do they need to understand in order to be able to learn the thing that I want to teach them, if that's the kind of book they're writing.

for other people it might be, I'm writing about my lived experience because I want people to understand what it's like for me. And so that might be just like an empathy. task. So, you know, by the time they get to this book, I want 'em to have just a tiny idea of what it might be to live in my shoes.

for other people it might be, they're writing for somebody who's already got the mindset thing, but they've, all of the stuff out there already is too advanced. So it's like, what's the very, the smallest possible thing that you could get somebody to do that they can't fail at, um, and get them, and maybe that's the transformation by the end is like, oh, I've now got this tiny skill that will enable me to do all of this stuff later on.

So mindset, empathy, the smaller thing they can do, uh, is kind of the change. and so you didn't really mention anything about. I'm air coding now, my personas and stuff like that. Right. It's not about that. It's more like, you know, the change that you're seeking to make, in their head. And how far do you go then to describe who's gonna read the book?

Like what, what do you tend to, to have?

if you've already got a, a customer persona, that's possibly a good place to start. But I always think of what type of person do I envisage reading this book?

And the demographics might be wildly different for people. Um, but the character traits, the, the, and it's, again, it's kind of thinking about what do I want the outcome to be and why do I want that outcome? To happen. So, and that's gonna inform the type of person that you are writing for.

So for instance, the books that I write, they're mostly aimed at people with neuro diversities or entrepreneurs with short attention spans or whatever, or people who don't think that they can write for whatever reason. Um, and those that could be a massive kind of broad group of people.

But within that broad group of people, it's gonna be a very specific. Kind of personality type, a very specific, character type. So I don't find it so useful to think of things in terms of demographics and kind of traditional marketing avatars, but it's more about that outcome and, and the ki the kind of person that I want to talk to.

At the time we're recording this episode, I'm actually editing the book, the standard workout book. Uh, and so what you said there is exactly the reason why I'm writing it. I'm writing it first for my. Myself, because I simply could not find the answer to the question I was looking for, which is, how do you make small business owners who don't have lots of resources actually differentiate themselves from others without using fluffy, shady tactics it connects with them, you know, to their, to their story or what they believe.

It's a long question, but it's an impost, like there was no resources whatsoever. That had this, the answer and yeah, worked my ass off to try to answer it. And so I think when it comes from within, when it, when it's for you first, it's a very good step. do you have another example of, um, maybe a client you work with, or something you've seen in the wild of like what you feel is a good definition of, you know, who should read this book?

she's not a client of mine actually. Um, but she has been on my podcast. Her name is Sharon Hurley Hall, and she writes about anti-racism on LinkedIn, and she wrote her book, it for two sets of people. She wrote it for white people who wanted to become anti-racist and learn about racism and how, and how to, how to kind of fight it in their everyday lives.

But she also wrote it for people who look like her as well, because, um, she wanted. Them to feel seen. it was kind of a dual, purpose with her book, she had two groups of people in mind and as far, cause I, I've obviously read it, I've interviewed her. For me that works really, really well.

because it speaks to me, but it also because it's speaking to, other black people like her, it's also speaking, you know, it's giving me that, it's giving me that point of view as well and kind of drawing me in. To the empathy thing, as well as giving me tools that I can use, um, as I, as I kind of read and as I want to go on and make changes in the world as well.

[00:17:31] Step 3: Figure out the reader's journey structure
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Right. Okay. Um, so we don't step one, why is it important to them, who's gonna read that book? What's next?

The next step is to look at that reader journey and start to think about what steps, we need them to take. So we've got, here's where they start, here's where you want them to be at the end. What do they need to know, in between here and there and able in order for them to get there.

So that's when we start thinking about, okay, what are the main, you've got this idea, what are the main points of the idea that you need to share? Like, what are the key messages? What are your opinions, your experiences? What are the stories that you need to tell to get people from A to B?

So what does it look like typically when it's done? Like is it a, do you put that in a Word document? A few pages on paper? Like what's the end product usually?

One of the things I don't do is say to people, you must use this tool, um, or you must use this tool. My aim always is to get people writing in whatever way is easiest to them.

So if they write in Google Docs, use a Google Doc. If you write in Scrivener, which is great because you can move things around. Um, you're scr it. If you are a. Colored pencils and paper and post-it notes type of person. use those. I like visual stuff, so I quite like being able to write my main points down on a, post-it note and move them around on a bigger piece of paper for me, that's really useful.

but I also like the electronic version. Scrivener, you can do that with the electronic card. You can just move them around and Google Keep, which I recently discovered, is also really useful for that because you can move the little thingies around and, and so it can be very visual or it can be very linear and, and I would say whatever works.

For you. Like I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that this is the one way to do it, cuz that's just gonna stop people from writing.

And what about the structure itself? So when you see that thing, whatever format it's on, when do you know it's, a good place to stop?

So for this structure, when I usually know that it's a, that I can kind of start writing, and again, this will be different for everybody, um, but when I feel like there is nothing more that I can add without it becoming fluff and filler, and when there is nothing missing, and I will usually get somebody else to just have a look at the structure at this point.

Um, my husband's a pretty good sounding board, so I will say to him, Does this make sense? Is there anything missing? And he'll be like, well, you've just jumped from here to here and there's a big chunk missing here. So I'll run it past somebody, just the structure and, I'll just make sure that there, there's, you know, it's not expanding, it's not bloating.

and at that point I'll think, you know what? I can start writing and then I'll pick a part of it, not necessarily the first part, and start writing other times. Um, and I know not everybody is a planner, so, you know, for some people I'll say, you know what, if you just wanna start writing, Start writing, it's like, start writing about why you wanna write this book and that can, that can help you to, to draw a structure out of it because it's like, I'm writing this book because blah, blah, blah.

and that can help you to kind of draw that structure out on the reader a journey. And once you've got a little bit of that, you can dig into it then with a highlighter pen or whatever and start, okay, there's a key idea. There's a key idea. There's another one. I feel like I've missed something here. it's really like, have I got this full picture?

is there anything missing? Is there anything that I could take out?

[00:20:13] Step 4: 3 surprising ways to beat writer's block
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sounds a bit like journaling, right? You basically trick your mind to say, you're not writing a book here. You're just fucking putting your thoughts on paper and just letting me go, which is something I tend to do when I'm lost I either write it or I just put it on the computer and just start to fucking, the first thing I tend to do is I curse a lot, so I write cursing.

I fuck that, fuck that, fuck that. I can't seem to find any ideas and whether I want, you know, and then after a few paragraphs of stuff that make no sense. The brain was let go of those thoughts and then you have the true essence that come through and it becomes interesting. So, that, remind me of that.

Do you do journaling, uh, as a way to get ideas?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I do, I do a very similar thing to you. I do a lot of swearing when I can't think of, um, what I want to say. So I, that's very familiar to me. but the other thing I do, and I don't think, I don't think a lot of people think of this because when you get bogged down in, I've got writer's block or whatever you wanna call it, I can't do the thing that I want to do.

That's often where people stop. It's like, I can't do it. I can't do it. I'm gonna go and do something else, or I can't do it, and I'm just gonna kind of rant about it, which is also valid. But I think also what people can do and what I do is like, actually why? You know, why am I stuck here? What is it that's, that's getting me stuck?

And kind of digging into that on paper is really, really useful because we think we know what's got us stuck sometimes. But actually it's something entirely different. So digging into that is a really useful exercise because A, you're gonna get some interesting stuff and interesting thoughts and B, you're gonna be able to figure out like, why am I stuck?

And then work through it. Cuz like trying to work through a block that you dunno what's caused it is, is really difficult if not impossible. So I also get people to think about why they're stuck and really dig into that instead of just going, I'm stuck, what am I gonna do?

That's, that's really good. And I think we're touching on the biggest problem here, right? Which is, I, I don't think it's that difficult for people to kind of figure out why it's important to them. I mean, The point of view it is a bit difficult, but like, it's not the the toughest. It's not the toughest to figure out who's gonna read that book.

Cuz especially if you come in from your perspective, like, why am I trying to solve that thing? Not that difficult to come up with a structure. I mean it's, you know, you can have it in a conversation or whatever. What's difficult for people clearly is to write that fucking thing. So,

what do you say to them when they are at this stage of, is it now, blank page, stuff like that.

I send them back to if they've got their kind of reader journey or their, their outline, I will send them back to that and be like, are you trying to write it from the beginning? Because if you are, then maybe that's not working for you. So just pick a thing that you want to write about today. So that's one thing that I'll do is I think people think they have to write it in sequence and they don't.

You can write it in whatever order you want. So I'll be like, what do you feel like writing today? And at some point, yes, you're gonna have to write the whole thing, but you know, today, in this moment, let's just start with the thing that you want to write about. That's gonna be fun. I will also get them to have a conversation with somebody about it. Like actually speak out loud, because I think sometimes just the act of writing itself, if somebody doesn't consider themselves to be a writer, that can be really intimidating.

which also leads me onto to another thing. It's like, stop trying to bloody write it down. It's like voice notes are a thing. Speak it into voice notes. I know a lot of people who write books using voice notes. Parts of my books are written using voice notes. I don't do it all on paper. I don't do it all on a word processor.

you know, if you're stuck, go for a walk, take your voice recorder with you and speak it. You know, imagine that you're having a conversation with somebody, which is another method. It's like, okay, so I'm stuck. I'm trying to write this book and be like a writer, an important writer. It's like, imagine actually instead that you're having a conversation with somebody about it, imagine that they're questioning you about it. Write yourself an interview. you know, imagine that, imagine that you're coming on the Everybody Hates Marketers podcast and Louis is interviewing you about your book. and it's like an ask yourself awkward questions and then have to answer them because that's a really, really good way of, of kind of just getting over that block.

You might not use it all, but that's okay. And that's another thing that I would say to people is like, we think, oh, when I'm writing the book, The first draft, it needs to be really good. No, it's a shitty first draft. It's called a shitty first draft for a reason. You cannot edit a blank page like aim to write shit.

And I find that to be a really useful thing. It's like stop trying to write something good and just aim to write shit because often it'll turn out to be better than you think it is anyway. and you'll have something you can use.

[00:24:01] Stop trying to write a perfect first draft, stop trying to take it so seriously, and stop thinking that it's all gotta come from you.
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I was hoping you would say that because this is the single, I think, most impactful thing for people who are creating art in the way we define it earlier, people outside of Aspace, people who don't create art in any way, shape or form, when they see artists producing work, what they imagine it to be is those super talented people who nailed it in the first try.

They, they picture those authors who wrote the book in the first go. They picture, those dancers who like learn the choreography in one go. Charlie Chaplin. Was known actually for retaking and retaking the same scene more than 200 times on average, apparently.

Right. he's seen as this mad genius, you know, you don't really know his story, but then you realize, no, he's not a fucking genius. He just worked his ass off and he fucking take, took the same scene 200 fucking times. So that puts things into perspective and I'm, I'm glad you mentioned the shitty first draft.

That helped me tremendously to write daily emails, write the book, or whatever. It's like the first step is always, After the outline is like, just, I'm gonna write it. Like, you know, I'm thinking in my head and there's no fucking editing there, there is no, uh, judging. I'm just writing shit. And then the day after I look at it and edit it and straight away it's like boom, boom, boom.

It's much, much faster. sorry for going into this passionate run, but this is, to me, I think this is the crux of it.

you are absolutely right, and I, I did know that about Charlie Chaplin. He did, he, but I know that like other people, modern people do the same thing. And it's like, you know, the more you do it. And I like using Stephen King as a, an example here, just because he is so prolific, it's like, it almost certainly takes him less time to write a book now than it did when he first.

Started, but that's the point. He's been doing this for like 40 years or whatever, and so like don't look at the person who's producing something and A think that you should be able to do it that quickly, and B, that it was any good at all on the first try because it was almost certainly not. So there's that shitty first drafting and I think related to that as well.

Is allowing people, like allowing yourself to have fun with it. And this is, this is kind of related to that. It's like just, you know, I say to people when it's like, oh, I don't know what to call my book. It's like, okay, come up with a hundred titles and just make them as stupid as you can. Like really come up with stupid stuff.

And it's the same with like ideas for books, ideas for. Whatever is like, allow yourself to play with it. It's like come up with the most ridiculous ideas that you can possibly think of and then see where they lead. Because it's like we're not trying to get that first idea, that's the final idea. It's like, where is it gonna lead me and what can I then do with it?

It's making connections and like look at what other people are doing as well. Cuz there's nothing, you know, there's very little new under the sun. It's like, but the new stuff comes from those connections. So. Stop trying to write a perfect first draft, stop trying to take it so seriously, um, and stop thinking that it's all gotta come from you.

You know, those are the three for me. Those are the three most important creative things. It's like allow, allow yourself to write shit. Allow yourself to play, and allow yourself to be influenced by other people, because that's where the best stuff comes from.

Yeah, that, that's something I see a lot as well, which is like, I'm gonna write that thing and. It needs to be unique and original. And so therefore, anything that's others have already mentioned, I can't mention. Right. Which is the wrong way to think about it. Instead, it's like, it's better to think you are standing on the shoulder of giants.

Uh, you've learned, you've been influenced throughout your life by people. And it's okay. Like it's about exactly as you said, creativity is connecting things that shouldn't be connected together. allow yourself to play, allow yourself to, to write shitty stuff or to come up with shitty stuff.

yeah. I apply all that to, I do trapeze as well. I apply all that to trapeze performances and the stuff that I come up with there. And I use that as well in my writing. And it's like if I'm gonna choreograph something for myself, how am I coming, coming up with that? What's my process? What am I looking at?

What am I thinking about? And I bring that into, Well, I write as well, and I think that everybody can do that. It's like whatever your hobby is, whatever you do outside of work, um, if it's either remotely creative and I firmly believe that literally everything is creative. it's like bring it into your writing as well.

Like bring it into the book you're writing or the email you're writing or the articles that you're writing. Thing or the work that you're doing with your clients. Bring all of yourself, if you can, into what you do and how can you use it and how can you change people's thinking? How can you change your own thinking and how can you come up with stuff that is new?

Cause like, it's not that you're coming up with a new and unique idea. It's your perspective and your experience on that and what you've put together. That's what's make, that's what makes it unique.

Yeah, it's It's the intersection of the things, not the things themselves. So it's not about. Taking all the components and thinking, oh, I can't use these components, they've been used before. It's no, it's how can you make it something new with those components that already exist? and that changes the game, right?

So Uh, you know, I think of my dad, right, who's a retired teacher

a

and it's, it's funny when I talk to him about, you know, what I do is it, it's really foreign as a concept to. Hold on. You are writing a book, even though you don't know everything about the topic or you interviewing people, even though they might know more than you.

And you know, it's, it's like, something so far. So you definitely have to train your brain about it, I'm the only entrepreneur in my entire family, like the entire family tree. I don't think there's any other, they're all teachers. So there you go.

So you understand,

just touched on something else that I think stops people from writing. It's like this idea that you have to know everything about what you do before you can write a book. And it's like, well, a, that's never gonna happen. You're never gonna know everything about what you do.

Nobody is, and B, as long as you're not positioning your yourself as the person who knows everything. Um, and some people do that, and those are not good people in my view. but like as long as you're not positioning yourself there and you're like, this is what I know, this is my truth. This is what I know, this is what I can share, then there's nothing wrong with being like, at the start of your journey or the middle of your journey or the end of your journey, as long as you're honest about it, right.

There is a, a thought that helps me a lot when I tend to struggle with this. Uh, sometimes when my anxiety takes over New people coming into the world every day, right? Like literally being born, but also entering a career, starting an entrepreneur journey or whatever. And those people, We have the same problems that you used to have with struggle, with the same questions to answer that, that you now know for sure.

And, and so it's, it's not a, The world is evolves and new people come in and so you always need to show up for them cuz you will do them a disservice by not showing up. You will do them a disservice by not sharing your story. You'll do them a disservice by not sharing your point of view.

You'll do them a disservice by just not writing that fucking book.

It's not about showing off. Writing a book is not about showing off how much we know. It's about sharing what we've got that might help somebody else.

And so there's the curse of knowledge, right? It's like I know all this stuff and you forget that the really foundational stuff. The really beginner stuff, actually, people don't know that. They don't know what you know, and so that can be incredibly transformational for people. I get really, I get really, really anxious about all sorts of things as well, but like, particularly about that kind of, oh, what if, you know what if somebody asks me something and I don't know the answer and it's like, well, that's okay actually, cuz I don't have to write about it and then I can go and learn about it.

And so I think that anxiety for me, I'm starting to learn to channel that into, I'm really worried about not being good enough, so I'm gonna continually make sure that I'm learning new stuff and. Getting, be better, whatever better means at at what I do. Um, and you know, I get really anxious about the first book that I wrote, which was near the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey.

And I'm like, oh my God, there's so many, so many things in there that I wouldn't say now. But then I still get letters from people who had just at the start of their journey and they're like, oh my God, this book has really helped me. And so it's like, it's okay cuz the people that I wrote it for are still gonna read it and the people that I didn't write it for are never gonna look at it.

And that's okay.

[00:30:51] How long does it take to write a book? If you've got 20 minutes a day, you can write a book
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moving on to this very passionate portion of the interview. How long should it take? To write a book?

Oh my gosh. I mean, how long is a, how long is a piece of strength? How long has it taken to write your book?

if you're thinking of the research, which took me a year and a half, I would say, probably two years and a half.

Yeah, and I don't think that's, and yours is a, a, you know, 60 thou, it's a chunky book, right? It's a big book. But I've also helped people to write their book in six to eight months, and it's been a chunky book.

You know, it's been a, a 60 to 80,000 word book. I'm doing micro books with people at the moment and, Probably about a third of those have got their micro book kind of written and ready to publish within four to six weeks. A few more are taken a couple of months. So it really depends. It depends on a lot of things and I don't, I don't like saying to people, it's gonna take you this long to write a book because you know, somebody might have all the time in the world to spend on a book and somebody else might have 20 minutes a day.

And that's what I would really like people to. Take away from this is that you don't need to have like two solid months to get a cabin in the woods or whatever. And that's the only way you're gonna write a book. If you've got 20 minutes a day, you can write a book. if you organize your time and you know what you're doing and you, you make time to do it and you make the plan and you know what you have to do.

and I'm not saying like rigidly schedule yourself, but like you said, you spent a year and a half researching, you might be like, I wanna spend six months researching this and then I want to spend this much time outlining it and this much time. Doing the first draft or whatever you can, you can kind of give yourself, I do think it's a good idea to have deadlines so that it doesn't go on forever.

but also that you can kind of not beat yourself up if you don't meet those deadlines. So that's probably not a very helpful way to answer that question. But I don't like saying to people, it's gonna take you this long to write a book, because I think then if people don't do it, they think they're a failure and that's not the case at all.

[00:32:26] Step 4: What to do once your first draft is done
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That's exactly why I asked you the question. I knew, I knew it wasn't an easy answer. so let's say we've written the first draft, it's there, it's done Like what's the next step?

So I would walk away from it for a couple of weeks if you can. Um, you've got your first draft. Don't look at it, don't think about it. Put it in a drawer, leave it alone. if you are on a tight deadline, leave as much time as you possibly can between, writing it and editing it because you want to give it that breathing space.

You wanna get out of your own head. You want to go and, get a few fresh ideas because most people kind of immerse themselves in the book. then come back to it and look at what you've done in a, maybe in a bit more objective manner, and you can see what's missing, what's in there that doesn't need to be, what makes no sense at all.

What are the really good bits? And you can then come back to it with that kind of, those fresh eyes.

when I read the manuscript, I was like, this is just, I'm talking a lot, right? And. I can easily remove 60, 70% of that thing, right? Simplify it.

Simplify it, simplify it. And that feels way less overwhelming than the process before. So now that I have stuff in front of me, I can play with it and I can mold it, I can simplify and just like my brain really lost that, but fuck the, the first few hours of working on this and having almost nothing.

And they're like, fuck. When is it gonna end? Like this is, you know, this is why you need to have a routine, a process What saved me was to have a system where it doesn't matter how long it takes me, what matters is that I show up and I do little thing every day, right?

[00:33:45] Step 5: Editing your book
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people say, oh, I can't find time. We don't find time for stuff like this. We make time for it. And I think that's really important is like, put that time aside. And for me, I schedule it as if I was working with a client. Like I would not flake out on a client coaching call, so I'm not gonna flake out on myself.

I mean, occasionally I do, I'm not perfect, but it's like I'm much less likely to, if I schedule it in, so, respect yourself enough to do it as well. It's like, you know, don't allow yourself to be distracted by other people. Do whatever you have to do to, even if it's only 20 minutes, and carve that time out.

And I also like what you said about, you've got like all of this stuff to work with. You've, you've got like, and maybe you're gonna cut, 50, 60, 70% of it, that's fine. It's like you don't have to, throw it away forever. Some of that stuff might be useful elsewhere. but I do think it would be useful to give people a bit of an insight into how I start editing.

it's not how everybody starts, but like how I start is, is I find it useful as I will go back to that reader journey and outline, and I'll have that next to me as I'm reading through my book and it's like, A, does the outline still make sense? Having given it a bit of space, because you can change it.

Like, don't, your outline is not set in stone. It can change. Um, and b, if it does still make sense, how does my first draft look when I put them side by side? It's like, does it, you know, what do I need to move? What's, is there anything missing? is there too much here? Can I take this out? And that is a really good place to start because it means that you're not just looking at this massive words and thinking, jeepers, where am I gonna start with this?

Because it isn't, it's. Daunting cause you've got all of this stuff. It's like, how do I start editing it? have the outline, have the massive words, and then just start putting them together and, and see what I can take out. Change or, add.

[00:35:14] Step 6: The group of people who must read your draft, especially when you can't afford an editor
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Okay. And maybe finally as the last step we uncover today, what do we do next?

some people like to do a couple of edits before they let anybody else look at it. I like to do one big edit and then I put together a group of beta readers, which is super useful. This is particularly useful for people on a tight budget who can't afford a professional editor.

I would always say if you can afford a professional editor, Pay for one because they are with their weights, the good ones. but if you can't, and even if you, even if you can, you should still do this, is is get your beta readers. So like, don't just send them, a manuscript and be like, what do you think of this?

Because they'll come back and say, ah, loved it. Which is nice, but not helpful. So it's like, have a. Series of questions, that you want to ask people, tell them not to worry about typos and grammar, although they will, because people love pointing out typos. but ask them, you know, does it flow?

Does it make sense? Is there anything missing? is there any, is there too much? Have I gone into too much detail? Um, have I started in the right place? And for me, with my book, the beta readers were invaluable because I had started in the wrong place. So my first chapter did not end up being my first chapter because one of the beta readers was like, this feels like too much to start with.

And so that was so useful because it was a much better book for having kind of run it through them. So make sure that you've got these questions. It's like, what do you wanna know? What do you want your beat to readers to do for you? Um, try not to have too many other like, professional writers as your beat to readers, because what happens then is they will read it and be like, I wouldn't have written it like this.

And so you'll get feedback that is more about tone and style than it is about content. but you wanna choose people who are in your target readership. depending on who you're aiming your book at, if you have people who are about the same level in business as you, they might look at it from their point of view and be like, oh, this is too simplistic.

That's fine, but that's not who it's aimed at. So think about who you're writing the book for and try and get those people to help you as B2 readers.

So there's a good book about that, which is called Write Useful Books by, Rob Fitzpatrick, who also wrote, uh, the mom test. And he has a portion on beta readers that I would recommend everyone to read. I'm just gonna read the specific piece of feedback you ask for beta readers.

So, he says instead, uh, the most useful feedback is about stuff like where you get confused or lost or have an unanswered question where you disagree or have different experiences where you start to get bored and feel like skipping ahead or giving up anything you find especially interesting or helpful.

that changes thing from, what do you think to, like, you really direct them and you need to have A thick skin. it's not about, it's not about you as a person. Uh, it's really about the art, the craft, the thing. So you're not the book.

[00:37:32] The 10-minute trick to handle "harsh" feedback
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I've come up with a technique that works really well for me is like, when I first get feedback from anybody, I will allow myself 10 minutes to have a 10 tantrum about it and be really offended. I will do that and then I will come back to it and I'll read it again. And I'll remember that I asked for this feedback.

It's like I asked for this feedback so that I can make this thing better. and then I'll read it in that. In that kind of vein. And I also remember that I don't have to take all of the advice that people come back with, that I don't have to take on board all that criticism. If I disagree with it, that's fine.

if it's something that's gonna make the book better, that I feel is gonna make the book better, I will use it. If it's something that I don't, I'll be like, thank you very much. Off it goes. You don't have to use it all.

Great. Okay, so we've covered a lot of ground, clearly passionate about your stuff and you know your stuff, which is very good. So, I'm gonna try to just repeat briefly the what we described. So step one, why is it department to them? Step two, who's reading the book? Step three rather structure, like do a bit of journaling, step four.

Get the thing outside of your head through like conversation, voice notes. go for a walk. Ask yourself, questions. let yourself be influenced by others. Uh, let yourself play with this and let yourself write shitty stuff. write the fucking thing, edit it, remove what is not needed. And then, I'm forgetting the last step,

Criticism, taking criticism and and how to use the criticism.

[00:38:46] What's the point of writing a book now that we have AI tools?
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what's the point of writing a book now that we have AI tools that can do it for us?

Yeah, so this is really interesting, actually. I'm glad you asked this because I was just writing about this the other day. Um, and I know that a lot of people are kind of worried about always AI gonna take over my job and all the rest of it. actually I think the point of it is that, and I was thinking about this in terms of art and I know that when, when we're talking about books for entrepreneurs, we're not necessarily talking about.

Kind of writing a novel or writing a memoir or whatever, but it's still, I still think of it as art. I still think of it as something that we are creating and putting out there, and with ai. The only reason behind writing something or creating a piece of writing is because somebody has told it to do so, right?

It's been given parameters, it's been told to do this. Whereas when a human creates a piece of art, whether that's a book or a painting or whatever, I think what humans are really interested in is the reasons behind why that painting or that book, or the memoir or whatever was created. It's like, yeah, but okay, why that landscape?

Why that's still life? Why this book particularly, why did this entrepreneur decide to write this book? Book about this aspect of business or this aspect of marketing and it's that deeper reason behind it. That's interesting. And I don't think, I don't think AI will be able to do that. And if, if it can, if it does get to the point where it can do that, and it has its own reasons, I think perhaps we're all fucked anyway.

I just did a, I was, I was being a bit facetious, but just in the sense of kind of the robot overlords and, you know, when AI becomes sentient, what happens then? I don't know much about that other than what I've seen in sci-fi movies and things. But, and you know, that might be really interesting as well, and I would be really interested to see what an AI who had sentient could come up with and what their reasons behind it would be.

But again, that to me wouldn't really be AI writing it. That would be a sentient being, writing something. And then again, it comes back to that. Well, why, why, why are they writing it? What's the reason behind it?

it's interesting you're using the word art to define. Book writing even in a nonfiction world, right? Like business books. Uh, I don't think that many people would describe a business book as art. I do agree with your definition cuz I do see art, I think the same way. And you do, but I don't want to influence you.

So can you

Can you

tell me how would you define art then? Like, what is the difference between art and something generated by an ai?

I would define, art as coming from a, Deep need or an in an idea that comes from within a person that they feel like they have to share and that they then want to create and put out there, for other people to share. It's like put out there as a gift almost.

And I know that there are a lot of reasons for writing books, a lot of reasons for entrepreneurs to write books, but I think one of those reasons can be, I've got this idea. I think there's something beautiful about it and I wanna share it with the world.

so in that case, you know, usually when people talk about art, we talk about, they think painting and stuff like that, or sculptures. But yeah, I agree that like as soon as it's your gut, as soon as you're putting yourself out there and it's not real until others see it. And that's the beauty of art.

It's like, this is who I am, this is what I believe in, and it's such a transcending experience. you know, when you start creating things instead of just consuming them, when you start really putting stuff out there and how people react to it, it's just such a, it's such a buzz. Like it's gives you so much energy and I think this is a true form of art and yeah, I really struggle to see how AI would change that.

If anything, it will probably push humans to do even more art because, you know, at this stage we'll have something to compete against and this will be the true differentiation.

yeah, exactly. Because you know, we can, I, I've seen some amazing art that's been created by ais and I've seen some really interesting piece of writing as well. But what I think is, really gonna be useful for AI is, is kind of people using it to come up with new ideas and put in, you know, just like put these two things together, saving us time for goodness sake, if an AI can write a sales letter better than we can, let it get on with it.

Do you know what I mean? And that can leave us. To kind of do the more interesting stuff and the more creative stuff. It's like, okay, well let's try and put this thing and this thing together, add my experience into it, and then put it out there for people. That, to me, is far more interesting than a book of regurgitated ideas or a, you know, an article of regurgitated ideas.

It's like, well, what's your experience of it? And AI can do a really good job of putting together facts and figures and a how to list. But what it can't do is like, well, Why is, why, why have you chosen to write about this thing? What's your experience of it and how can your angle and your lens help somebody else who might be a little bit like you?

That, that to me is what's really important and interesting

[00:42:56] Vicky's recommendations
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What do you think our listeners should learn today that will help them in the next 10, 20, 50 years?

I think we need to just learn how to be more bloody and trusting, how to put things together. We need to learn, you know? What artists, why we care about why we care about stories, and we need to learn about as many different things as possible.

Um, you know, read really widely, I'm reading Entangled Life by Merlin. She, Drake at the moment. It's about fungus. it's so interesting and it's making me, it's changing the way I think about what communication is, what life is, what sentence is. And so there's all of these ideas about. What makes things that, you know, we, we think we know so much and we do, but we also know nothing at all.

So read really widely, be more interesting. Do things that are interesting that you can write about and, and use that reading, and watching and listening to make connections that other people aren't making, and then write about them.

What are the top three resources you'd recommend listeners today?

read and listen and watch widely outside your industry, outside your immediate field of interest. Pay attention to people and ideas you disagree with and seek them out. Like get out the echo chamber. read stuff that you wouldn't normally do. notebook and pencil.

I journal on everything. Um, I write everything down partly because I forget things very quickly, but also because when I write them down I can write down. Why I'm writing them down as well. So it's not just, I wanna remember this thing, it's like, why was this thing important to me? So notebook and pencil, question all my beliefs that way.

And thirdly, find a group of people that you can trust to bounce ideas off of. So they need to be people who aren't afraid to call you out on your bullshit. people who aren't afraid to question your ideas and beliefs and plans, but also people who are like gonna ride and die for you if, if you need them to like people who are gonna have your back in the best way possible.

Great. Well, that was a hour packed interview. So if people really want to learn more from you, connect with you, what, where should they go?

Uh, they should go to my website, which is moxie books.code.uk. Um, I've got a email newsletter which I send out two or three times a week. also on LinkedIn, if you look for Vicky Quinn, Fraser, I'm there. find me on Instagram and Twitter as well.

Well once again, thank you very much, Vicki.

Thank you so much, Louis. It's been a pleasure.