Everyone Hates Marketers | No-BS Marketing & Brand Strategy Podcast

Louis: Bonjour, bonjour and welcome to another episode of EveryoneHatesmMrketers.com, the no-fluff actionable marketing podcast for marketers, founders and tech people who are just sick of shady, aggressive marketing. I'm your host, Louis Grenier.

In today's episode, you will learn how you can use surveys to sell better. And for the first time ever you will be hearing from two guests. Yes, the first time I am actually interviewing two guests at once. One is a hypnotist, the other one is a mind reader for the last 17 years.

So it's kind of a crazy couple of guests to get for the first time I'm interviewing two people, but anyway we'll do our best, right? Both are actually the co-founders of the service that were ResponseSuites. It's a shame actually it's an audio podcast because they have terrific haircuts. Anyway, Rob and Kennedy, welcome aboard.

Rob: Hello.

Kennedy: Bonjour.

Louis: Wow, they are picking up fast.

Kennedy: That's the best I've got I'm afraid.

Louis: You're co-founders of Response Suites but as I said in the intro you also do quite some interesting stuff in the entertainment world including mind reading and hypnosis. The first question I have for you, is mind reading or hypnosis not paying enough?

Kennedy: Do you know what it is, it's a funny old thing, Rob and I have both been individually doing our entertainment thing. The problem with entertainment and actually, funnily enough, the reason I got into selling any kind of information or doing anything that was outside of just being on stage and being mildly humorous was because the thing that you spend the most time doing is traveling and waiting for gigs.

Because Rob and I individually both travel to London a lot, away from home or further abroad. Stuff in Dubai, stuff throughout Europe, stuff in the States and Canada. We do a lot of international stuff for our clients. It means we spend a lot of time either in departure lounges, or on trains, or in hotels, waiting to go and do our show, or in a hotel having done our show waiting for the next day to fly home.

It basically means, as I teach my students who I help with their entertainment businesses which is my first foray into doing something other than entertaining, as I actually set up a business helping other entertainers, is that we actually waste a lot of time.

Kennedy: Our maximum capacity for doing any kind of gig in the corporate entertainment world, which is the world that I'm in, is probably three events a week because that's when there are corporate conferences. In Rob's world theater, you are talking about maximum amount of five or six nights a week?

Rob: Yeah, and in a very condensed space of time for me. Probably 40 to 60 shows over the course of two months, but then I'm not performing for the rest of that time. I do all my shows, get them out the way, and then I just do a handful spread throughout the year. In that case, I've got months and months of time. Apart from writing a new show, I've got months of time sitting around, really.

Kennedy: And one of the things I do, you sit around going, “This seems like a lot of wasted time, I can't take another gig. I can't be anywhere else. How else can I use this time productively, what can I do?”

If you are single you can chase women or whatever, if that's your thing. But then when you're not single anymore that puts an end to that, doesn’t it? You have to do something else.

For me, that's when I started writing stuff for fellow performers, writing material for other people, helping, and coaching other performers, and doing that kind of thing. Rob did something similar, because I know you went into helping people and doing self-help.

Rob: Exactly. Self-improvement and helping hypnotists who wanted to learn stage hypnosis. The other thing for you, of course, is that what you do now came about through demand, I guess.

So people started to see that you were so busy, posting pictures on cruise ships, or corporate events on the other side of the world and saying, “Wow, How is Kennedy getting all of this work. I've put my ad in the Yellow Pages why aren't the cruise ships calling me?”

And then saying how do I get a better business as an entertainer, that pays me more money, etc. That evolved into coaching, but then coaching is very time intensive so that evolved into a membership site. I guess it also came from doing a thing, being noticed for people who wanted to do that thing, and then they came for help.

Kennedy: Yeah, I never woke up one day and thought I know what I want to do with my spare time. I'm gonna teach other entertainers how to build their businesses or how to run more efficient businesses and get the gigs they wanna get. I wish I was smart enough to have thought about, I'm just not that smart.

What I did instead was I got lots of bloody messages from people and emails and Facebook messages saying, “Hey, how did you get those gigs?” And “What shall I do with this advert good? Should I be doing this?” And I thought I've got to at some point leverage this time.

Rob: What I like is we both fell into the entertainment world because we got hooked on it at a very young age…

Kennedy: Yeah

Rob: ...and then led into that. But then everything else we've done, everything we've done online, has very much been borne from a need. Somebody wanted something, and we've thought well, we can fulfill that. And we've got the time and the knowledge to do it.

Kennedy: Because we are not like business visionaries, not like, “I have diagnosed the markets and there's a real strong need for this thing.” No, I've just gone, “I've got a problem with this,” or I'm being offered this opportunity, let's do that. It's more like a gut instinct thing.

Rob: We have this thing about being the most unlikely entrepreneurs, because the truth is I wasn't selling sweets to kids at school when I was 12. I wasn't on a market stand by the age of 18 and all the typical entrepreneurial stories.

Kennedy: Well, I kind of was.

Rob: You did have a weird experience.

Kennedy: Do you want me to tell you my first entrepreneurial story?

Louis: Go on.

Kennedy: Alright, so I remember I was at school I used to get dinner at school. My mum used to give me my dinner money, every day, every morning, leave it on the kitchen table before I went to school. Then one evening she was doing the laundry, she was doing the washing, and she said, “Kennedy, what's all of this?”

She had a hand full of change and I was like damn it. She's like: “Have you not been eating your school dinner? Is everything okay?” She was concerned about me and I had to confess what I'd been doing.

From quite a young age I had pretty neat handwriting. My handwriting is pretty good, mostly. What I was doing, as an entrepreneur (we'll call it entrepreneur, that's the word we'll use) is I was offering to write excuse notes for my fellow kids for 50p.

If you were off school for the day because you skived off school I could write you a note for 50p. If you wanted get out of PE, didn't want to do it, I would write you a note for 50p. I had this pocket full of 50ps that I would just use to buy sweets and crap like that and swapsie cards or whatever they were, Wrestling Federation card. It was my first foray into entrepreneurship.

Rob: But apart from that-

Kennedy: But that was due to demand.

Rob:I suppose we created stuff to fulfill a demand.

Louis: If I had to summarize what you just said, its sounds like you are so experienced in the field of the entertainment side. It seems like you are well known, you get gigs, you know your stuff, you know how to write new shows and how to prepare for shows. It sounds like you needed something else to do, something new, something exciting.

Rob: For me, I always had this thing. It's funny when you do a gig, people come up to you and they insult you without realizing they are insulting you because they say to you, “So, what do you do for a job?”

And I'm like, “You know this shit I just did on stage that's what I do for a job.” That's something I work really hard at, but the truth is the reason they say that is because you are one hundred percent exchanging time for money.

Rob: You can never as an entertainer build anything that's bigger than you. I've got this strong sense, and I know this sounds a bit out there and a bit like BS-y, but I have this strong thing that I like to give back. I like to contribute. I think that's one of the reasons I'm an entertainer because when I do my funny mind reading stuff and people react, that feeling that I get when they go, “Wow. That's amazing.”

I love that feeling or when I give somebody a piece of advice which allows them to book the most expensive high-priced gig they've ever got, or if they use our survey platform, ReponseSuite, and they are able to transform and slicken up the way that they run their coaching program, or the way they engage people on webinars or whatever they do.

When I hear the response and the reaction they get that's better than the money for me. Yes, I need the money to pay my bills. Yes, I wanna have success and be able to have freedom but actually I just like that feeling of people going, “That's great.” So that for me is how can I leverage that thing.

Louis: It's the same buzz, right? You have the same buzz when you-

Rob: Totally.

Louis: Entertain people as well as what you mention in response to it. So let me switch gears to something much more closely related to marketing, much more closely related to helping people to sell better as I said in the intro right, using surveys.

Briefly, from zero to ten, how do you think surveys, how trendy are they right now? Surveys, for most people in the business world?

Kennedy: I think the way that most people use it, it's a zero. Most people it's a thing, we get asked questions all the time. Does anyone even take surveys anymore?

Rob: Tell the story about the presentation.

Kennedy: I mean, for example, we were booked to do a presentation at a business exhibition type event and I was gonna do a presentation for about forty-five minutes about the power of surveys, etc. Now, what happened was, people would be attending this event.

I was speaking, there were a few other people doing other presentations about other things, like staff and HR and finance and all sorts of other things, and in advance the event organizers sent me a spreadsheet that had the names and email addresses of all the people who had registered interest in coming to my particular presentation.

Doesn't mean they have to come. Sometimes, they might get there and get caught up in other things. Equally, you don't have to register in advance you can just turn up on the day and come along but they had given their email address, they had registered their interest in coming to the presentation and they given explicit consent for their details to be given to us so that we could contact them.

Kennedy: So what happened was I knocked up a quick email, two days before the event, I sent the email out and that email basically said “hey, I can see you are coming to our masterclass session on whatever day it was.

It's about email marketing, but just so I can tailor it best to suit you can you take this quick three question survey just so I know where you are at” and then I ask them what we call key questions. These are key defining questions to find out specifically where they're at.

There were questions like, again it's to do with email marketing and surveys, so I asked questions like “how many subscribers do you have right now,” that was question one. Question two, “do you mostly do broadcast emails or do you mostly do automated campaigns, or both?”, and C “what email marketing solution do you use?” if you are use Infusionsoft, etc.

I sent that email out and people took it, that was great, and then I turned up and I did the presentation and at the end, when I did the Q and A somebody said, “But does people even take surveys anymore?”

And I said well let's just find out. Let's take a gamble. If you received an email from me, that had a link to a survey in it, and you took the survey, put your hands up. And a hundred percent of the room put their hands up. Including the lady, incidentally, weirdly, who said, “Does anyone even take surveys anymore.”

Kennedy: So I think from a marketing perspective a lot of businesses think that, “Oh well, people don't do surveys anymore. It's a hassle and if I email them with a survey I can't email them with an offer,” which is not true, we'll talk about that in a minute, and therefore they get locked in this mindset.

Rob: The big problem, I think a lot of people have, is just the mindset of where a survey fits in your flow and this is the thing we broke and the reason we actually had to create ResponseSuite in the first place.

Because again, we didn't come up with these great idea to make us rich one day, like ResponseSuite, actually we came up with ResponseSuite because we needed a solution to do this thing.

What we had the idea was, where a survey fits in most people’s minds is like this, step one of your process is you do some kind of lead generation, you build your list, and then you do some kind of indoctrination and you warm up those people and then you sell them a thing and they buy the thing.

Then a few days later, you might, sometimes, send them a survey to find out what they thought of that thing. Just as a courtesy, so you can find out how well your product is doing. And funnily enough a lot of people who sell online products don't even do that.

But for everybody who’s running surveys, when you think of a survey, that's where the survey goes. It goes at the very end of the process and that's where it sits.

What happens with that survey data, well every now and again, maybe once a year, a couple of times a year, maybe even once a month if you are really keen, you might open that up and just see how well you're doing. “Oh, that's good.”

Or they didn't like that or might improve the fact that they had to change their password three times to get into the online membership area. You use it to fix a few things with your business. But basically-

Kennedy: You can't do a lot with that data.

Rob: No you just look at it and sort of react to it. That's all you are doing you are reacting.

Rob: Surveys is where useful data goes to die. That's what happens. It goes there and it rots until somebody can be arsed to go and actually check it out.

Rob: We had another idea which was, what if instead of at the end of the process, what we would call the cul-de-sac of the marketing world-

Louis: You are actually using French words.

Rob: I'm just making sure-

Kennedy: Bonjour and cul-de-sac by the way.

Rob: Le petit pois dans le chambre. I don't know why the peas are in the bedroom but they are the only two words I know. I did GCSE French, I'll have you know.

Kennedy: So did I.

Rob: I can't remember any of it. Rather than the survey be that end, that cul-de-sac where all this useful information goes to die, what if it was the center of your marketing? What if when you move people from joining your list, nurture them, sell them a thing and then you survey them?

What if that was only, rather than that being the complete process, what if that was only the first half of your sales process? What if there was another half that nobody was really doing anything with but actually was more profitable?

Rob: So what if, one example, we'll give you two, I'll give you the first one. What if you asked people, okay you bought my program, let's do a marketing example, which was about traffic generation using Facebook ads, because there are not enough courses about that out right now, right?

So you've just bought a fabulous new Facebook ads course mainly because the person selling it was an attractive woman on Facebook, she looked pretty, and you thought if I buy this off her I may be in with a chance. You buy that off her and you consume it, that's great.

And then you receive a survey and that survey says, what did you think of the program? Was it awful, okay, amazing? You click it was amazing. You were very beautiful. That's good. Question number two.

Now that you are really good with Facebook ads what do you need next to grow your business? Is it a template and a training on landing pages that convert for sales? Is it another traffic generation method that is google ads? Or is it search engine optimization? Just three things off the top of my head.

Rob: I click I could do with help with search engine optimization, that's gonna be my bag. And the next question is something like, what is your budget? Or something like that, whatever other question. You click submit.

Immediately on the thank you page there's a video of said attractive woman, just using this example, saying: “Thank you for taking my survey. That was lovely of you. You said you wanted some help with search engine optimization.

Good news, I've got a really good program which teaches search engine optimization and as a thank you for taking that survey I wanna give you 50% off and give you this bonus. Would you like it?”

Now what we've got is another sales process happening at moment of unique engagement. Because what would the alternative to that be? The alternative that most people are doing, most marketers are doing, is somebody buys a thing off us and then what do they do. They go email all the buyers and go, "Hey, wanna buy this other thing?"

And they either say yes or no. Most do say no, and you go, "Hey, what about this other thing?" And you keep beating them over the head with different offers until they spend money with you because we are told, over and over and over again, that the easiest people to sell to are current customers who have already spent money with us.

It's true, but what if you break that pattern? What if you do something that the people are not expecting? Which is ask what they thought of your product, ask their opinion, show them that you are actually valued by saying, "Hey, what did you think of that thing?"

Rob: Suddenly, you look a lot more professional. Suddenly, you care about them. And suddenly, they go from being passively scrolling through their email inbox -- while they open up your email and get shouted at with another offer. Instead of that, you cut through that bullshit. And instead you say, "What did you think of that thing?"

And I go, "Oh, he or she wants my opinion. That's really nice". They click to take your survey, and we can share with you some ideas on how to get people to click to take your survey because that's one of the keys to this process, of getting people to fill them in, and then they ask you some questions.

Fill in the survey, great, and now they are actively involved 'cause they are thinking, "What did I think of that product? Oh, what do I need help with next?"

So now they are active. They are in an active state of mind. I'm using my psychology brain here from my mind reading world that I've spent the lasts 16 years or so using. It really applies right here. We've all got these skills we can pull in. Now on that thank you page they are no longer in a passive mode.

They've just told you what they need help with, not only what they need help with, but what they need help with right now and what they are most interested in, in this moment. That's amazing, because how many of us wish we could read our customers minds? Well, you basically are.

They are telling you what they want and now on that next page you can offer them the thing they want and because they are in an active mental state they are much more likely to buy it because they are actively involved in completing the survey. It changes everything doesn't it?

Louis: Thanks for giving me this example and for painting this super clear picture. It's quite easy to talk to you to be honest because you are asking the questions and then answering them as well. I'll just sit back and relax.

Rob: Sorry.

Louis: No, it's great.

Rob: I just get excited.

Louis: I'm not being sarcastic, it's actually very good. You painted this picture of the world where surveys, obviously to use at the end of the funnel, where the survey goes to die, the data goes to die.

No one really takes the time to read them, apart from maybe an intern every six to nine months, when they have nothing to do on a Friday afternoon.

Your new world, the picture you are painting, is a bit different. It's using survey to truly read people's minds so you can really sell better and sell more stuff without being salesy-

Rob: But also without pissing them off, without giving them offers that they don't want.

Louis: Exactly. I think listeners are super curious to hear about how exactly do I do that. This all sounds really good, but how the fuck do I do it?

Let's take this example you took, and maybe there's another case, but let's start with the example you took about you have already subscribed other customers and you're gonna start a survey. How do you go about it starting from step number one?

Rob: So this is gonna fit really after any kind of major piece of action. That might be that somebody registers for a webinar, it might be that somebody joins your list, it might be that somebody buys a product.

For whatever reason somebody is going to take some significant action and some significant engagement with you. Again, could be becoming a new subscriber, it could be becoming a new customer, could be literally anything that involves giving you their details-

Kennedy: A member of your program.

Rob: Joining your membership site, anything. The moment that happens you are gonna put them into some sort of sequence where you are gonna send them some emails and push them in the direction of a survey.

We like to do it over the course of four or five emails, four is preferable. We call it the Alpha Sequence, 'cause everything has to have a trendy name on the internet, otherwise nobody cares.

Kennedy: Otherwise we really haven't invented it.

Rob: Exactly. So we invented it. It's called the Alpha Sequence, there you go. What happens is that you're gonna send them the emails. They are gonna be short, sharp and to the point. Really short emails, a couple of sentences that just say, "Thanks for joining my newsletter, I want to make sure that the stuff I'm sending you is most helpful, most relevant, and most valuable. So please take two minutes to fill out this quick survey and I've got something special for you as a little thank you for doing it."

Or, "Thank you for buying the product last week, hope you are enjoying going through it. Would you take two minutes to fill out this quick survey so I know what you thought of it?"

Or on the thank you page of a webinar registration, "Thank you for registering for the webinar. I wanna to make sure that the content on the webinar is the most appropriate it can be for my entire audience. Please take two minutes to fill out this quick survey and then I'll be able to tailor it best."

Rob: First of all, notice here the big point of this is the opposite of what most people do with surveys. Most of the time, when you think of a survey, you think of someone on Facebook that you know is doing a University dissertation and they want to get some feedback so can you fill in this 29 question survey-

Kennedy: Yawn.

Rob: -about the last time you had breakfast. This isn't about this at all. This is about you've just done a thing and now I wanna make sure that this is the best possible experience for you. It's all about being honest about the fact that you want their help to help them. That's really great.

You are gonna send them into a survey and here's the key, keep the survey short, sharp and to the point. Don't ask for anything that you don't need. We like it to be 3, maybe 4, questions. All multiple choice where possible.

ResponseSuite, our survey platform, it does allow you to have any type of question but all multiple choice is best. They are just like radio buttons they choose an answer from. Just ask for their name and address at the bottom.

What you're gonna do is define what your key questions are. A key question is any question where you can take the answer and it defines something about that person.

For example, it might be you've got a high ticket application form for a high ticket coaching program, one of those questions might be, "What's your budget for coaching in your business right now, and in your life right now?" Because truthfully if somebody can't afford your $25,000 coaching program there's not much point getting them on the phone.

Whereas your key question might be, "Whereabouts do you live?" And if they don't choose your country then maybe you can't serve them if you're a local business, a country-specific business.

You can ask them questions that are relevant, "Which of these do you need most help with right now? Which of these is your biggest obstacle right now?" Those are not the same thing. "Which of these are you most interested in right now?" That's not the same thing either. You are gonna ask the questions that are most relevant to you.

You are gonna give them some options, they're gonna choose one, which is nice and then they go ahead and they pop their name and email address in, just to verify who they are. When they go ahead and hit submit at that point there's really two things that you want to look at. You wanna look at what's the immediate thing they see within seconds of filling out that survey.

That's why we recommend doing a thing we called smart reader act. It's basically, as soon as they fill out the survey, take them to a page where you can make them an offer that's relevant based on what they just said.

For example, if somebody says, "I really want help with Facebook ads next," make sure that the next thing they see is a thing when you offer them a course about Facebook ads. That's the first bit.

Second bit is to think about what you're gonna do to follow up with them afterwards. You wanna like tag them in your CRM, or put them on different lists in your CRM or email marketing software so that the emails they receive, the text messages they receive, the sequence of direct mail, if you're a direct mail business.

The letters that get printed out of the printer to be stuffed in envelopes and sent to them, the phone calls. The sequence of marketing events that happen after filling out the survey are different based on what they said in answer to the survey questions.

Kennedy: For example, if the answer that they give you qualifies them for a phone call because they are a certain value client then that gives a notification to that sales person, for example, whereas if they qualify for something less than that, maybe something of a lower value, again you put them into that email sequence if it's a lower touchpoint thing.

Rob: For example, if you are using this as a high ticket thing, to find out whether or not they are likely to be a good fit for your coaching program which is, again, let's say it's $8,000, when somebody fills that out if they tick I've got $15,000 to spend or $8,000 to spend you definitely want to get them on the phone.

As soon as they fill out the survey make sure you take them to a page where they can book in an appointment.

Whereas if somebody says I don't have any money to invest, that might not strictly be true. Maybe they are just trying to keep their cards a little bit more close to their chest. But you probably don't want to get them on a call immediately, because they've tried to hide the fact that they've got any money from you and those people exist or they genuinely don't have any money.

In which case, you probably wanna put them into an email sequence that is designed to warm them up first, send them some case studies, display some value along the way before you eventually get them on the phone rather than just saying well anyone that wants a call.

I've seen so many coaches, consultants who say if somebody wants a call they can get on a free strategy call with me 'cause if I speak to enough people some of them will buy. That's just a horrendous waste of time, speaking to people who are never gonna be able to join.

Kennedy: Often these people just wanna get on the phone with you 'cause they wanna speak to you personally 'cause they admire you and they love you a little bit.

Rob: Rent a friend.

Rob: Basically what you end up doing is, you want to make sure that there's three bits to it really. You want to put people in a sequence to send them the survey, then they fill out the survey and that has three or four questions in it and then the offshoot from that is that you either, or both.

Take them to a relevant offer immediately based on what they've just said and that offer could be schedule your strategy call here, or it could be buy this thing, or it could be join this membership program, or/and you put them into an email sequence, or a sequence of letters, or text messages, or phone calls, or carrier pigeons, or whatever it is that you wanna do to do your marketing.

Louis: Thanks so much for this very thorough and structured answer. Again, I love what you said for a few reasons. The first one is because it's using basic stuff, we are not trying to reinvent the wheel here using surveys. We are just asking people what they want.

Two, it's leveraging a few psychological levers, one of them being the foot in the door principle. This person did a small action, for example, they registered for this webinar. That's the first small action. Then you are asking them something a bit bigger, filling in this survey.

Those people are more likely to complete the survey because they've done this action before so you leverage the foot in the door principle. But the third thing you are doing is, based on this information right now while they are “warm” -- while someone is actually actively engaging with you -- you give them an offer of something that is highly personalized to them right after they chose the options.

For example, as you said, if they have $10,000 to spend right now, I have a huge problem I need help. Then the next action is simply just give them a call right now. I like that very much because it's really in line with my philosophy, the philosophy of this podcast and I know the philosophy of people listening.

Let's break it down a bit more. In terms of step one, it sounds like this system works best for people, as you said consultants, could be agencies or companies selling services, that have already some sort of a presence, some sort of an audience. Right?

Kennedy: Sort of.

Rob: It basically works for anyone. It started out 'cause we both have businesses where we sell info products. That's where it started out for us. Neither of us have a high ticket program in that niche where we needed this. For us, it started out because we had loads of products to sell or, we both have a membership site.

But that membership site covers a lot of different things and, therefore, we wanna know what specifically from that program do they need help with so we can sell them it with that as the leading benefit.

Kennedy: If you're just getting started, little bit of a different tangent, if one of the ways you are launching or the way you are starting and growing your things is through a webinar, as we mentioned before, we ran a webinar.

We thought, let's try using our own platform ResponseSuite to increase the show up rate of webinars because what we've all done as marketers is to accept the normal statistics of show up rates, of opt in rates and open rates.

For some reason accept that number that's touted around by the so-called gurus is acceptable. Actually, we have a philosophy in here that we don't accept the norm because why on earth would we. All we wanna do is you wanna use ResponseSuite to increase the show up rate for our webinars where we are gonna pitch ResponseSuite in actual fact, in this case.

What we did was we said, "Come and join this webinar. We're gonna show you how to use really clever, modern, email segmentation to getter better results from your marketing," or something like that, it was a little while ago.

As soon as people register we asked them what is the main thing that you need help with right now or something like that. Are you mainly doing this, doing this, or doing that?

What that means now is with that information, because all of that information gets pushed directly into our email marketing system. It means we sent a custom (very slightly custom by the way, not much work at all) a custom email sequence to each person depending on what they said they wanted the most help with.

So if their struggle right now is growing their list we can highlight in the show up sequence, to get them to come along to the webinar and be there live, about all the different ways we are going to help them increase their list size.

Whereas somebody else who said the thing I really needed help with is getting engagement from my existing list then all of our emails, on the lead up to the webinar, are here's one of the things that we are gonna share with you and we'll tease some of the stuff that we're gonna teach about engagement in your list and getting open ways to increasing click-throughs to increase.

This is not just about making more sales. This is about creating more engagement with every single person who joins your list or people who already on your list because it's a bit, the way I like to think of it and I talk about it a lot with friends.

Do you remember those choose your own adventure stories? While you'd be reading through and if you think he turned left turn to page 42, if you think he turned right turn to page 86. It's like that for every subscriber.

We have a saying in the office which is blanket marketing is dead and the reason is, look at the way we consume information these days, actually even the way we consume TV shows now. My Dad called me the other night and he said, "Kennedy, are you watching that thing on the BBC right now, on BBC One?"

And I'm like, "No, Dad". I don't watch TV like that. Nobody of our age or younger watches TV on the schedule that the TV station say we are gonna publish that and stream it. Instead, we tune into Amazon and Netflix where we consume the content we want to consume on the time frame we wanna consume it.

Why have most email marketers not realized that's how people consume information now? The way you want that information and what you need right now is different to the way other people do so why do we treat them all the same? Why do we send to all?

Why do we open up our email system and say, "This is today's promotion," and send to everyone. Truth is you are probably alienating at least 60% of your list, at least.

Rob: What's come out of conversations recently, so basically, this was originally devised for us as info product marketers and, by the way, for years we were doing this manually. We were running surveys, we were exporting CSV files, we were segmenting CSV files-

Kennedy: Based on the responses.

Rob: Uploading them back into email marketing software. We were just doing this in our business for ages before we actually decided actually let's make this a piece of software, let's start teaching these methods, and it was working really nicely.

That's what we were doing and we were doing it to serve our info product businesses and in doing that we sold cheap things with it, we sold expensive programs with it, we sold memberships, we used it on webinars.

Kennedy: We used it on existing businesses. We launched new brands with it.

Rob: It works with all that stuff but over time we have realized, in fact just a few weeks ago we were talking to somebody who helps freelancers to build better freelancing businesses, as WordPress developers or as PHP developers or as copywriters, and actually he was like, "I need to tell everyone about this because they should be using it as part of their client acquisition process." So actually it works for those people as well which is a crazy thing we had never thought of until he came up with it.

It works for everyone, however what I would say is if somebody is starting out and somebody is just getting their business going and they've just built their first list-building funnel, or their first webinar funnel or their first product launch thing, the time to start using this concept.

This mindset really of not treating all your customers the same, is immediately because otherwise your marketing is gonna be out of date before you start.

Louis: Let's say we have a list and we run a few things. We run some webinars, we have an email list people can join, we sell product. Briefly can you give me which action would you start setting up a survey after based on what I said, webinar registration, email registration, buying a product. Which one would you pick first?

Rob: The simplest one to do it with would be when somebody subscribes to your list. Let's imagine that you've got a free report or a free white paper or a free recipe that you give away, at this point, the only thing that you know about the person that's opting in is that they are interested in that one thing.

For example, we've got a client in the fitness space and he gives away a free report and some people are opting in for that from all over the world, opting in, put their email address in, and he's excited because he's seeing his list get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's cool.

Rob: Then when we were chatting to him we said, "But you realize that free report is gonna help loads of different people?" And he said, "Yeah, that's why it's great," and I said, "No, that's why you've got a problem." Because what he was doing was giving away this free report that would attract people who want help to lose weight but it would also be beneficial to people who want to build muscle.

Which is a very different thing, but it would also be beneficial to people who want to train for a marathon. Suddenly, he's got all these different people who need different help, different advice, different solutions and actually truthfully it would be medically damaging if he was to try to treat them all the same.

If somebody wants to shed pounds as opposed to wants to put on muscle and become a bodybuilder it's a very different thing, not that I am a fitness expert, but I know that.

As we were talking to him we realized actually you've got a bunch of people opting into your thing. Another example, somebody we interviewed on our podcast, 3 Marketers Walk Into A Podcast, a little while ago is one of our clients Theresa. Theresa is a social media coach.

She teaches small businesses, small businesses, how to use social media. What she realized was what she's trying to do is help freelance social media experts to do social media on behalf of clients. That's why she started because that's what she does.

She wanted to help people who are like one-man bands, or one-woman bands, or one-person bands, in 2019, to start helping other businesses with their social media but very quickly she realized her list was growing full of people who have a job doing social media within an actual company, or have an agency, or are just entrepreneurs who want help with social media.

Suddenly, she realized they need help with different things because if you are a freelancer you need help getting clients, if you've got a job then you need help creating content, so they are very different things. Again, suddenly she realized, just 'cause she is giving away that one free thing it doesn't mean that all those people now immediately want her help with the next thing.

Here's the problem that gives us. Most people have been taught the standard process of give away a free report, sell a thing for $27, sell another thing for a bit more money, and that works and that's fine and we do it and we suggest that you do it.

You might as well have an offer there but actually very quickly after opting in, within a day or two, within a few hours in our case, within four hours, it sends them an email which then says, "Do you want to take this quick survey so I can find out how best to serve you?"

I think what more and more businesses are finding, especially people that who are new and starting out, is that turning new subscribers into paying customers is the hardest challenge. Acquiring subscribers actually is not that difficult.

It's fairly easy to do, especially if you're willing to throw some money at Facebook ads or Google ads or whatever, but getting a return on that investment is getting harder and harder.

More and more marketing coaches, who only three or four years ago, were saying you just run some ads and the funnel will self-liquidate... are now saying actually that funnel might half self-liquidate, but then the real money is in the next thing you sell them.

The faster somebody can get that initial sale the better. We think the easiest starting place is as soon as somebody joins your list run them through a survey which means that within a few hours you can be selling them the exact thing they want there and then not guessing what they might want.

Louis: So start at the very top. There are a few solutions there. I like to be very practical right here to give some information to listeners on how to do that.

You mentioned yourself created Response Suite and I was thinking as you were describing there is also a very easy way to do that using. For example, Zapier where you use one tool for your emails such as MailChimp. You set up a trigger via Zapier and then you send them to surveys like Typeform and depending on the action you can set up different tags or different sequences.

I was also thinking when you were talking about making them send a survey that a lot of people now are using links or questions directly within the email. Instead of you sending a survey, you have a question with three choices in the email, straight away, that says click on the link on the sentence that matches closest to who you are.

Like I'm a marketer, I'm a designer, I'm a developer and clicking on this will actually fire a tag in your CRM or in your sequence that will allow you to do what you said as well. I wanted to provide a few more options as well but the process is the same it's just all about-

Rob: Just a sec. Here's a couple of tips if you are gonna do any of those things or if you wanna run a survey, whether it's with ResponseSuite or with any other platform, really important thing is that you wanna increase the response rate.

When you do this you need to really focus on how many people actually complete those surveys. We've got a couple of different techniques, is it okay to share them, might be valuable maybe?

Louis: Of course.

Rob: One of the things you wanna do is make sure you do link your survey system to your email marketing system. If they don't talk to each other you are not gonna be able to get the most responses possible.

The reason we know that is 'cause we tried. This is what we did. We used a really famous survey platform, long before ResponseSuite, to do this manually and what we had to do is we would send out the first email saying, "Hey, please take this survey."

And some people would. Great, but then the majority of your list don't take that survey on that first email, of course they don't because they don't all open that email and they don't all react to it.

So what happens now is you can't really email everybody again saying, "Hiya, if you didn't take the survey I mentioned yesterday would you please go and take it now," with a different angle.

Kennedy: 'Cause now your messaging is wishy washy and everything that we hate.

Rob: Yeah and it's not direct. It's not giving them a very clear thing to do. Worse than that is you're actually punishing the people who are your hyper-responders by sending them an email to which they've already taken action on.

You are basically saying, "You know that thing you did yesterday, sorry but I'm emailing you again about it." You are punishing your hyper-responders which is not good.

What you wanna do is make sure that your email marketing system is talking to your survey platform.

And that means when somebody completes the survey you take them and you exclude them from the follow up email which are saying, "Hey, you didn't complete the survey, please go and complete the survey."

That's the first thing. We send four or five emails in that sequence to encourage them to take the survey with different angles and making it friendly and all that good stuff. That's the first thing.

The second thing to do is there are some people who will click to take the survey, they'll get to your survey page, and they'll go, "Right, that looks good, I'll do it later," or for some reason they click, which you can track in your email marketing system, great.

You can track that but if they don't complete the survey after clicking it what you gonna do now. The other thing we're gonna do is put some kind of way of re-targeting those people which is the reason, obviously I'm going to tell you about ResponseSuite 'cause we saw all these problems so we fixed them in ResponseSuite for us.

What we do there, is we allow ourselves to put Facebook tracking pixels and to put Google analytics code onto your actual surveys themselves so you can now re-target people using Google, using Facebook, into the survey so you now know if they completed the survey. That's just two really quick tips on how you can maximize the number of completions.

Louis: I know that most email marketing software, like yours, have this capacity now and with Zapier, or any connection I also, like a lot of tools as well, talk to each other and you can perform all of that but at the end of the day it's not about the tool. It's all-

Kennedy: No, absolutely not. It's about using the technique.

Louis: Yes.

Kennedy: And that's the big thing because ... let's imagine the situation which is the way we all now normally do it. I'll give you an example we've used a few times actually in presentations that we've given.

Imagine you are in the DIY, home improvement niche and you do a few different things so people join your list and the first bunch of emails you send them through are all about how to improve your garden.

For the DIY niche, they've opted in for something DIYish, and you send the next five emails are all about here's a good product about improving your garden but I don't want a thing that's about improving my garden because actually I don't have a garden, I don't have a backyard, I just live in a place without one. That's okay.

Five emails later, I now get put into the next sequence of offers and that sequence of offers is all about how to convert my attic and I get five emails about this product they've got about converting my attic.

Problem is, I don't want to convert my attic. But it's okay because after those 10 emails now I've gone through, five emails about improving my garden and five emails converting my attic I now get an email which is about how to remodel my kitchen. My kitchen's fine, my kitchen is absolutely fine.

I get another five emails promoting a product about remodeling my kitchen and finally 15 emails later, so now on the 16th email, I get an email about a course which is to do with how to lay out my garage so that everything's really nicely laid out, my tools are all nicely laid out and I can actually fit my car in my garage.

How many people are really gonna stick around for 15 emails about stuff they've got no interest in at all. Not many people. If they don't unsubscribe they are certainly gonna disengage which means your engagement, your open rates, your click-through rates drop through the floor. The solution to that-

Rob: The knock on effect which is your delivery gets worse.

Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the email marketing science, the actual tech behind it, as soon as people stop opening your emails then the email providers start thinking this is probably not that relevant so they stop delivering as many of your emails which is awful as well but we can go into that another time perhaps.

That's the way that most people are doing it. They are putting people through a chain of offers whether you are doing in real time with broadcasts of you are doing it through automations. The simple solutions of getting me straight there to that offer of how to lay out my garage is as soon as I've opted in for that free thing ask me what I really want help with.

When I say I really want help with my garage, offer me stuff that helps with my garage. Not only have you kept me more engaged, increased your deliverability for everybody on your list, but you've got your return on ad spend investment back quicker and they like you more because they are only sending you offers for stuff you want.

Rob: Here's why we like to do a survey as opposed to ... 'cause it's a great technique if you put links in your emails and get people to click the links. Click here if you are this, click here if you are this, click here if you are this.

Realistically, and we have tested it, it only is really effective if you are asking one question with a handful of answers as opposed to a bunch of questions. The big technology here, the big secret, is to not only put people through the right sequence, as Kennedy's just described, in other words, what do you need help with right now?

And then sell them that thing but actually to gather as much data as possible about that person in the swiftest time possible and here's what I mean by that. Pretty much all email marketing providers allow you to tag people based on stuff. It used to be, back in the day, that everyone's on a list and then that list tells you what it tells you.

Now it's more tag oriented, so you tag them based on different things, and some of them are a combination of both so somebody might be on this list but they have these tags.

The big thing for us is, if you ask a question where you've got four questions, each of the four questions has four possible answers, so now you've got 16 possible answers across that thing each one of those is associated with a tag in your system.

For example, one of the questions might be, this question is getting harder to ask, but are you male or female or prefer not to say?

Again that might make a difference if you are in the fitness world. If somebody says they're male you tag them as male, if somebody say they're female you tag them as female, if somebody says say not to prefer you can tag them as that and the way you follow up with that would be down to you.

The next one might be which of these are you most interested in, what's your big goal here? Are you trying to lose weight and that would apply that tag. Are you trying to build muscle that would apply that tag. Are you trying to regenerate after an illness, regenerate, I'm not Dr Who, what's the word, anyway get better-

Kennedy: Recover.

Rob: Recover or are you trying to train for a big event and each one of those would have a relevant tag.

Next one. How old are you? Are you 18-25? Are you 26-40? 40-60? 60 plus. That would tag them differently as well. The big thing here is that you now have this matrix of data where you can look in your system and you can quickly say give me a report of everyone who is male, 25-60, which would be a couple of tags put together.

Male, those age ranges and interested in building muscle 'cause they are the only people who it's gonna be worth inviting to my body building for men webinar class.

The key here is to, over time, build this matrix of data but the faster you can get that instantly the better your ongoing broadcast marketing is gonna be. Our philosophy is automate that really cool process to sell them the perfect thing at the right time but then over a period of the months, years, decades that somebody remains on your list make sure that you don't just email everyone on the list with an offer, which is what most people are doing right now.

The most that most people do at the moment, and some people don't even do this, is they exclude the people who've already bought a product when they mail it. Buy my how-to fabulous, fabulous, fabulous product and we'll exclude everyone who has already bought that product.

That's a great starting point but the next step, to really step up your game and start getting better results, is to only make those offers to people who it fits.

Louis: That's a perfect way to end this step-by-step, although I have a question I want to ask you but I'm not sure we touch on it exactly.

If you have to pick the four questions that you would recommend people to ask in this survey, you ask a few, you gave a few example, but if you really have to pick those four questions that would tend to give you the best type of answers, the one that are the most business critical, what would they be.

Kennedy: What we call the key question which is what is the question you have to ask to figure out which of your products, and they don't even have to be your products remember, the products that you recommend could be things that you are an affiliate of where you just make a commission out of, you don't have to create all of these products if that fits your bag, for some businesses that doesn't fit your bag and that's fine.

Rob: Imagine you could only ask one question. If it was illegal to ask more than one question what would that question be.

Kennedy: Yeah and that question has to be which, from your pool of products are, look at what are the problems that your four products solve and then you basically say which of these things do you need the most help with right now.

The important parts of that question are which of these do you need the most help with, so what’s needed help with, and the last bit is right now. The timeliness is really important 'cause that's the closest thing to mind reading like we said earlier.

Now we know it's a timely thing that they really want help with it right now. That's the most important question you must ask.

The second thing is to come up with a question which allows ... because what you want to do, and this is getting pretty advanced now but, you wanna ask questions that are actually loaded to get the person to start selling themselves on the thing you are gonna offer them.

The way you do that is by getting them to think about the value of the thing that they said they are having a problem with. If I said to you which one of this things do you need help with right now and I give you four options.

You check that one, the first little secret there is, by the way, to make these radio buttons like Rob said earlier, so that it's easy to complete and fast to complete, like five minutes or less. They choose that thing and then you ask them what would it mean to you, or what would the value of that thing be to you right now.

You can't start saying either monetary values which are a little bit crude and quite transparent or, more importantly, emotional values. What would it allow you to do? You can talk about it will allow me to spend more time with my spouse, it would create more freedom, it would allow me to, I don't know, depends what your niche is, whatever your benefits are.

Basically, give four benefits of all of those products that apply to all the benefits and allow them to choose one.

Rob: What you can do right there, by the way, is make sure that if you've got four options to the first question you can have those benefits for each of those options. For example, if somebody I want help to build ... so your options are do you want help to build your list, do you help to drive traffic, do you want help to create products or do you want help to convert people into sales.

You would have four benefit options for each of those but only display the relevant ones. If somebody says I want help with list building and then you say how would that benefit you in your life right now? How would that help you? Your four options that appear in the survey now are based on list building.

It would say I want help to build a tribe so I've got ready instant traffic and I can work less and blah, blah blah. The second set of options would be different to the second option. Does that make sense?

Kennedy: Yeah.

Rob: So you want to branch down your answers to make sure that the four things they're seeing ... all they've got is four benefits that they can choose from, from the thing they just selected.

Louis: What do you need help with right now, what are the benefits of this particular solution, what else?

Rob: Yeah. It's not the benefits, it's the position as the value.

Louis: The value, right?

Rob: The way to write the options for you as the writer of the survey is to actually write the big benefits and do that in an emotional way.

The next thing you want to do is you wanna make sure, for absolute sure, that you've got the person's email address because if you don't do that then really talking back to your email marketing system and excluding them from anything or then following up in the most relevant way is not really gonna happen. That's the third one.

The fourth one can be a variable thing and we always leave that one up to being something that's maybe specific for your industry. That might be to do with goals, if that works for your business, it might be to do with-

Kennedy: It might be a demographic thing.

Rob: Yeah, exactly, it might be demographics. It might be location if it's a physical thing or it might be your timezone if it's online coaching. It's something usually to do with the way that it's delivered specifically to those people.

It's a bit of information that's gonna ... the idea of that one there is really to help you overcome an objection, to make sure there's not gonna be an objection. It might be an objection the customer might have or it might be an objection you might have to working with them.

For example, it might be that they self-identify as something that they might have an objection to actually buying your product like I can't get to Louisiana every week because it's a Louisiana-based Mastermind.

So you would exclude them from the Louisiana Mastermind at that one or it might be for you, they have no money to invest in ads and if you're running and ads program then you don't wanna have them invested in your program and then not get any results.

They've got no money to actually invest in ads then again that would be excluding themselves from your perspective rather than from their perspective.

It's some kind of inclusion or exclusion question. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I don't want to say it depends but hopefully I've given you the framework to figure out what your question might be like.

Kennedy: We hate those it depends answers but it's one of those things where if you are in the fitness niche you probably need to know some stuff about their age and their make up, if you like.

Rob: And if you are doing a physical in person, personal training, you need to know where they are based.

Kennedy: It is gonna vary a bit but those are the basics.

Louis: The best advice I can give on this is when you speak to people face to face, you meet them at events of whatever, and you are curious about who they are because they could be a potential customer or they actually are customers, is to think what questions do you tend to ask straight away to get to know them better.

Sometimes it's using fitness, have you done it before, have you done any weight-lifting before, yes or no? Or if your marketing is about are you a no-bullshit marketer, yes or no? Or do you believe in the same thing I believe, the belief system-

Kennedy: That's a great question there about where are they in their process. Are you a beginner, are you an intermediate, are you an advanced person? You can apply that basically, you want to be more specific in your niche, but, for example, in list building that would be:

I don't have a list yet, I have a list but I want it to be bigger, or I've got a massive list that I want to be more effective. If it's in the fitness niche it's: I've never done any fitness before, I've done fitness fairly regularly or I'm an athlete and I want normal support. It's about where they are on their journey.

Louis: It goes back to what the system you are talking about right now, and thanks by the way for going through all of those used cases, is that you need to do some sort of research before, at the end of the day. You can't just jump in, making assumptions about everyone.

Kennedy: But please resist the temptation to make it any longer than four or five questions. You get to a 6th question you are asking too many questions. The real key to this is to get the answers and you can't get the answers to those questions if people aren't completing them.

People don't complete when there are open ended paragraph type questions, you're gonna massively reduce that uptake, and if there are lots of questions. More than four questions, when you get to that number five, that's when it drops off.

Louis: I would say the fact that you are advocating for radio buttons I agree for the speed of selection. It's something to tread carefully if you don't know your demographic, your personnel, your customers very well and this is why it's better, that's my point of view, it's better to start with one or two open-ended questions if you have no clue about who the customers are so they can use their own words.

Kennedy: Sure. I think it's an interesting idea to do that but actually I think the big mistake we all make in marketing is that we go ahead and we run ads or we put a sales page up, or we create product, before we even know what the customers are. Actually, we shouldn't be running this, we shouldn't be creating the opt-in, unless we know that data.

Louis: Yeah, that's the point, right?

Kennedy: Maybe run a survey before-hand but that's not ... or better than the surveys at that point, and I realize we have a survey platform so I should be surveys for everything, but actually run the survey at that point, yes, it works really effectively, but better than surveys for doing your customer research and understanding your customers are customer interviews.

Actually, pick the phone up. Go and go face to face. People love doing your a favor. Go ask them the question. Don't be afraid to do that, have conversations, make sure you have a deep understanding of the customers first. Sorry to sort of cut you off there but I got excited.

Louis: That's my point as well. Exactly. Do your research before running such surveys because else you might actually shoot yourself in the foot by giving them options that they don't care about.

Rob: I'll just jump in here. There is an interesting thing here. Our customers have two things, first of all they don't always know what's best for them, and secondly they can't always put into words exactly what their problem is 'cause sometimes they don't know and sometimes they just don't word it very well. That's another problem with taking that route.

One thing you can do, however, and one phenomenon that we've noticed a lot over the last six or seven years of doing this, is that if you have, by this I mean survey marketing specifically, if you have somebody who comes into your business and they go through this survey, a lot of the time if you just give them radio buttons to choose from you will actually tell them what their problem is because they will read your radio buttons.

And they'll suddenly think, "Oh, actually, that's where I'm really falling apart. I've got a product I made but I'm struggling to build a sales pitch for it, a funnel for it." Or, "I've got everything built, I paid somebody to do that for me, but now I've built it and nobody's coming. How do I market this thing? How do I drive traffic through the thing?"

A lot of the time if you just said, "What's your problem right now?" They'll say, "Oh, well, you know, I'm very busy and I wake up in the morning and I don't know what I'm supposed to do next and then me wife nags me and then well I suppose, I check my emails and I get lost in a slurry of people trying to sell me shit."

Kennedy: There is that guy. There's also the other guy which is I've built a funnel but it's just not working.

Rob: Yeah. Or the Facebook ads aren't working.

Kennedy: What does that mean?

Rob: What you'll find is a lot of the time if I just said to somebody what do you need help with right now and literally, face to face, you say, "What do you need help with right now?" They can't actually just say because most people only have one problem in their life, in their business, at any one time.

We think we've got loads but actually there's only one big problem we have to solve. Once we've solved that we'll have a new big problem to solve and once we've solved that we'll have a new big problem to solve.

I'm not saying they've only got one problem and once that's solved they'll be the next Richard Branson but they've only got one problem that is really important to them right now and that's all we should be trying to help them solve.

From my perspective you should give them some options for things you can genuinely help them to solve and if, truthfully, if their answer isn't in one of those radio buttons then you can't help them anyway 'cause you don't have the solution for that. We shouldn't be just inventing solutions for the sake of customers giving us money.

If they're gonna choose one of those four things, they're basically raising their hand and saying, in their own mind, "Well, I'm interested in that thing," which means that now when you start promoting that to them they think it was their idea because they told you about it but they only told you about it because it was the one that was most applicable from your options, if that makes sense.

So effectively, this whole thing about if you tell a customer something they might believe it, if someone else tells a customer something they more likely to believe it but if they think they've come up with the idea themselves they are definitely gonna believe it. It inspires that mentality in them. We're-

Kennedy: We're selecting which one they need help with.

Rob: We're basically saying do you want help with list building, product creation, building funnels or driving traffic. Their actual open-ended answer might be none of those things but when presented with those four options the one that's most relevant to them might be product creation. That inspires them to want it.

Louis: Makes sense.

Kennedy: It's a bit like the presumptive close that the old sales guys used to do. They would say you're gonna buy this new car that you are buying, do you want the red one or the blue one? The option there is not do you want the car or not 'cause that's a terrible way to close, in the old school way, which we all hate.

Rob: It's that brought up to date.

Kennedy: It's that but made not terrible.

Louis: So remind me very briefly about the questions you advise to use?

Kennedy: So the questions are oh-

Rob: Which of these do you need the most help with now and how is that gonna change your life is effectively what you want to get across.

Kennedy: Then any demographic or qualifier you need to have and, of course, their email address. We also like to ask for their name so we can address them properly.

Louis: Thanks so much for going through this step by step with me, giving me so many examples, and giving people listening so many examples and use cases. I have one last question for you before I let you go. What are the top three resources you recommend our listeners today could be anything, software, books, conferences, anything?

Kennedy: Resources. I really like a book called, I wish I could remember what it's called, I'm busy reading it but I'm really enjoying it. It's How To Sell The Way Customers Want To Buy, I think it's called. It's a really good book.

Rob: Catchy.

Kennedy: It's a long title but it's really about doing the customer interviews and understanding your customers so I just thought what we talked about that was really, really relevant so that will really help us out. In terms of apps, we run our entire business, pretty much, on Asana-

Rob: And Slack. Slack and Asana. Our team are all here in the office. Nothing is outsourced or farmed off to other countries or anything. Everything happens here in our office and so we can actually shout across the room to each other and do sometimes.

But Slack and Asana have made a massive difference and obviously it's funny with email marketing platforms we've moved across quite a few. We currently use Infusionsoft, Active Campaign, and ConvertKit. Recommend them all. They're all good.

Kennedy: Yeah, we really like them.

Rob: We just use them for different things.

Louis: Thanks so much for naming all of those suits. I do use ConvertKit as well, but I'm not married to any tools. I've learned through my experience that it's not about the tools, it's about the systems, the first principle behind them.

Rob and Kennedy, thanks so much once again. Where can listeners connect with you, learn more from you?

Rob: There's a few places. If you want to hear us interviewing a different expert marketer every week you can tune into our podcast over at 3 Marketers Walk Into A Podcast, catchy name for you there. Or if you want to take a look at what ResponseSuite does, or what it might be able to do for you, we've actually got a 14 day free trial.

You can actually go and test it out and make sure it's a really good fit for you 'cause we want only delighted customers. You can do that over at ResponseSuite.com.

Kennedy: And also we would absolutely love to hear from listeners. If you want to get in touch and say, "You're lovely and your hair looks great," or you want to get in touch and say, "That was a load of shit and you don't know what you're talking about," we'd love to hear from your feedback. You can just send us a message on social. Twitter is probably the easiest, it's @ResponseSuite or Facebook.

Rob: In fact I've got a little challenge for the listeners actually, I would like to know how you felt about this episode, and I'd love you to take a photo of your face which expresses how you feel about this episode and please tweet that to us.

Kennedy: So that's one photograph.

Rob: One photograph, of yourself, expressing how you felt about this episode.

Kennedy: With only your face.

Rob: @ResponseSuite

Louis: Make sure to tag me as well. People listening they will know, they'll know Twitter icon to tag me. I wanna see those stupid faces so make them uglier as possible so Rob and Kennedy get heart attack from hospital.

Rob: That would be great fun.

Louis: Thanks again.

Rob: Absolutely our pleasure.

Kennedy: Pleasure.

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