Everyone Hates Marketers | No-BS Marketing & Brand Strategy Podcast

Louis: Nichole, what a pleasure to have you on the show. I’ve been reading a lot of your articles in the last few years at this stage. It feels like I know you and you don’t know me. It always feels creepy. But today, we’re going to talk about something that is quite close to my heart because I tried to launch a SaaS business in the past that I failed miserably.

There is something about founders trying to launch SaaS businesses. Some of them seem to have a huge bias against marketing, about marketing. It seems like marketing is what you do when your product is shit, basically. But you argue the contrary. You think that most founders seem to want to skip all of the pre-marketing initiatives which is not great, they need to have this foundation.

Can you tell me a little bit more about this marketing foundations and why they are so important?

Nichole: What we’re talking about here are early stage SaaS startups. Usually, what happens is they want to skip talking to their customers and really understanding who their ideal customer is. Instead, they want to go straight into, “I’ve been reading about growth hacking, how do I get that started?” Without any real foundation of who they’re trying to talk to, what kind of language they’re trying to use to talk to that person, how to get in front of them, how to make them successful with their product.

What happens is they go for these growth hacking tactics without having that foundation and either they aren’t acquiring at the rate that they wanted or they do acquire but they aren’t retaining.

Louis: Why do you think this is happening? Why do you think those founders avoid talking to customers in the first place?

Nichole: I think one reason is because it’s time consuming. A founder already has so many things to do and I think they find difficulty with scaling, talking to customers. Because ideally, you want to talk to them in person. If you can’t do that, on the phone, if you can’t do that, you want to record their user sessions and so on.

A lot of times, they would just send out simple surveys with maybe leading questions and ask questions such as what features should we build out, which are questions you shouldn’t ask, and things that they could’ve done the work when they really haven’t.

Louis: I’m going to ask a very leading question which is the worst type of question you should ask. Do you think that the reason why they don’t want to really talk to customers even face to face or they feel that they don’t have time is because they feel that those customers don’t really know what they want anyway and that they shouldn’t listen to them?

Nichole: Some people might think that and other people might think that they already talked to friends and family and that’s sufficient, when really, that isn’t who you need to be talking to.

Louis: Why not?

Nichole: Because those aren’t your ideal customers who are going to reach their desired outcomes with your product.

Louis: From your experience, if a founder, an early stage SaaS company doesn’t apply and work on those foundations, what happens usually? From your experience, just purely qualitative experience, what usually happens after?

Nichole: What happens is they seek out a consultant like me and they tell me, “Well, we’re not acquiring at the rate we wanted to.” Or, “We are but we aren’t retaining. We think it has to do with customers who aren’t understanding what our product actually does and maybe it’s the language on our site.” When they come to that kind of realization, they’re absolutely correct.

There is so much work that needs to be done around the language that goes onto your site. It needs to be a continuous process as well. It’s not that you just figure it out one day and you’re done. Your SaaS startup changes over time as it grows, so you need to keep updating that language as your product is changing, as you’re adding new features and helping people reach more and more different types of desired outcomes.

Louis: Is it easy to fix that after the fact like let’s say once they realized that the potential customer don’t really understand what they do? Do you feel like it’s an easy work or does it take a long time and most of the time it kind of fails at the end because they haven’t done it at first?

Nichole: You can save your SaaS startup. I’m not sure if I would call it easy work, but it’s very comprehensive work. There’s a lot of customer development and customer success that needs to be put in place and that is definitely time consuming and that is how we get into this situation in the first place where they want to skip this initiatives and go straight into marketing because it’s easier, it’s an easier route to take.

When it comes to growth hacking, it’s what they’ve heard over and over. It’s what they want to do. “I’ve heard I’d get 1000 customers in a month, I’m just going to go for that tactic.” When they don’t really look into the full strategy that went into how somebody got those 1000 customers.

Louis: Why is growth hacking so attractive to those founders?

Nichole: Well, it’s everybody’s dream story. It makes it look like there’s these overnight successes when in reality, what’s going on behind the scene at most startups is a lot of people don’t know what they’re actually doing and they’re figuring it out as they’re going along but they don’t write about all of that. They’re going to write about the wins that they’ve gotten.

Sometimes, people write about what isn’t working but it’s usually after the fact when after their startup has failed completely and they write a post mortem startup kind of piece on Medium or something like that that you’ll see everything then worked out quite right. It looks attractive to see these really what seemed to be quick wins and suddenly lots of money and fame and all of that.

Louis: That’s the basic human brain really trying to not use many resources to get to somewhere. I found the same when I talk to marketers. It’s the easy and quick way that people are looking for. But it doesn’t happen as you say.

In this episode, what I like to do with you right now is to go through this work of setting the foundations. We won’t have necessarily the time to go through every single aspect because you mentioned a lot of words that are very specific, a lot of activities that we literally could talk about for hours customer success, customer development language market fit and so on.

But I like to give another view, and a step by step methodology to our listeners so that they can take that away, maybe research that a little bit more but at least have a guide, something they can look after, look at in the next few months or weeks. Are you okay with that?

Nichole: Yeah, absolutely.

Louis: Let’s go. Let’s say I have a SaaS business which I had a few years ago. I mean, I only thought about it, I didn’t really launch anything but it still counts. I have this business and I’m only getting started. I barely have an MVP, a first version of the product. What do you recommend for me to do next to set the foundation for my marketing efforts?

Nichole: I would start with customer development work. You really want to identify your ideal customer. Now, ideal customers are not the same thing as building out personas. Personas are more of a marketing effort. This is well before getting into marketing efforts. This will affect marketing but this is more of customer success, customer development kind of efforts.

Your ideal customers are going to be people who are ready, willing, and able to work with you and they’re going to have what Lincoln Murphy refers to as success potential. Customers that have success potential are good fit customers. This is the opposite of a bad fit customer that are never going to get value from you now or ever. You want to identify these ideal customers and it’s good to start out with one.

That doesn’t mean that you will necessarily own just one but when you’re in this stage, you really want to get as focused as possible. What happens here sometimes is that founders start feeling like they’re having FOMO, fear of missing out, if they’re not trying to appeal to everyone. But when you’re trying to appeal to everyone, you don’t know how to speak to them and you don’t know that your product is for them.

You don’t know what’s right on your site or how to communicate with them in your product or even who they are. It has to start with identifying who your ideal customer is.

Louis: It is incredibly counter-intuitive for people especially when as you said, some of them are trying to get fame or success overnight, they think that the more people they can reach, the more likely they are to succeed. But as you said exactly, the less people you’re trying to reach, the more chance you have of success because as you said, the more that they will feel that this product is exactly for them.

Nichole: Exactly.

Louis: It’s something that, I’m going to forget his name now, but one of the positioning experts, Philip Morgan, talks about is he has a good tip that I keep repeating to people is that if there is a conference for it, then the market is big enough.

For example, did you know that there is a conference, I think in Florida as well, organized in Florida last year, for organic soap makers? There’s actually people making soap and there’s actually more than 750 attendees in this conference.

You can start incredibly small and yet start to make money and then expand.

Nichole: Exactly. That’s just an excellent point. And also, when you’re identifying a market, you’ve got to keep your total adjustable market in the back of your mind as well because you’ve got competitors and all kinds of variables that are at play when you’re identifying your ideal customer.

Louis: Let’s get into the how to of identifying your ideal customers. I have a business, I have a MVP, and I might have a few paying customers already. How do I pick the one I should talk to first?

Nichole: There’s different ways to do this. What I recommended, and I’m not sure if he still has it up, is going to Lincoln Murphy’s Ideal Customer Profile articles and downloading his spreadsheet and working through that. Basically, what he has you do is work through who is ready, who is willing, and who is able. Once you’ve determined that, you determine who fits that profile and you start getting in contact with them to talk to them about your product.

Louis: What if I don’t have any customers that fit my ideal customer profile?

Nichole: Well, these are potential customers that we’re talking about.

Louis: Potential customers?

Nichole: Yeah.

Louis: So you help them, you use Lincoln Murphy’s resources. We are going to link those in the shownotes for sure so that listeners can get them. Once you have them, let’s say, you’re getting in touch with them, as you said at the start, the preferred way to do so would be face to face, right?

Nichole: Right. Which sometimes is really difficult. They might be across the country or in a completely different country totally.

Louis: Should the founder actually make the investment of going wherever this person is?

Nichole: It really depends. Sometimes you don’t have the resources so maybe jump on a video call if you can but if you do have the resources, definitely meet with them in person.

Louis: How do you convince people to get on the phone with you or to meet you face to face?

Nichole: That’s a really good question. You would probably need to know them to some extent or start getting to know them or have an introduction made from somebody else who knows them. While I do say I wouldn’t exactly start with friends and family, they might need to be somewhere in your network because it’s going to be difficult to just get people who don’t know you, to take the time out of being super busy to look at your product.

Sometimes, you can find people like this on communities like BetaList, SurveyMonkey, places like that, people who do want to be an early adopter and give that kind of feedback.

Louis: One tip that I have for that is really to empower them and basically tell them that they have the knowledge, they are the smart ones, we are kind of the dumb ones and we need to learn from them. Putting them in the situation where, “We want to learn from you. You’re an expert on your field. You’re an expert practitioner and I want to learn from you.”

Nichole: That’s a great tip for sure.

Louis: Once we do these interviews, what resources would you recommend to do customer development interviews and what will be your favorite question to ask?

Nichole: What I really like to focus on is what is their desired outcome. Their desired outcome is going to exist outside of the product most of the time. If you’re talking about something like AdEspresso, which is a Facebook ads platform, your ideal customer’s desired outcome isn’t to place an ad on that platform, it is to get customers from placing that ad.

You don’t want to ask them which features to build but you want to ask them what problems that they have that you can solve and you need to figure out what features to build to help them solve those problems to reach their desired outcomes.

Louis: It’s very similar to the Jobs-to-be-Done methodology for example, right?

Nichole: In some cases, I think the Jobs-to-be-Done methodology might be a little less customer-centric than customer success but I’m not entirely familiar with it to say for sure.

Louis: That’s a fair enough answer. It’s a tough question to answer. The Jobs-to-be-Done is something you really need to get your head around. It’s difficult to get your head around but once you get it, I think it really helps with your marketing. It’s quite similar because it talks about outcome, it never talks about, as you said, features, it always talks about benefits, it’s what you’re trying to achieve.

The listeners have probably seen this on social media, this little Mario eating the plant and then he becomes this Mario with the fireballs. People that are buying your product are buying a better version of themselves.

Nichole: Exactly.

Louis: We have this profile of our ideal customer. Once again, it’s a very specific profile meaning that it’s unlikely that millions of people fit this profile, correct?

Nichole: Right.

Louis: Ideally, you should have maybe, I don’t know, it’s difficult to say. But even if you have only, let’s say, 2000 or 5000 people in the world that fit this profile exactly, then it’s plenty to start with because you can always expand, as you mentioned before, to your addressable market that you have in mind.

Nichole: Exactly. You can add to your product and you can work on cross-selling and upselling. Once you do have those successful customers, they act as brand advocates for you. There’s a lot of opportunity there still even if you start out with a small market.

Louis: We have this ideal customer, what’s the next step?

Nichole: You’ve talked to them to determine what their desired outcomes are. Before that, because we’ve gotten a little bit ahead of ourselves, you do want to determine what success potential they have with your product. That is another initiative that Lincoln Murphy started or champions. You can look up his article on Success Potential to find the different kinds of fits that an ideal customer needs to be successful with your product.

That’s going to be technical fit, functional fit, resource fit, competence fit, experience fit, and cultural fit. He goes into details in his article about that. And then, you’re going to work on determining the desired outcome of your customers. After that, you’re going to want to do customer development to work on your value proposition.

I recommend Strategyzer’s Value Proposition Design book but there’s lots of easier methods that are less time consuming. ConversionXL has a nice worksheet you can download. I think they’re even in the first result for value proposition if you look it up on Google.

But if you want really want to get in depth, definitely check out Value Proposition Design and you can talk to your customers to help them or potential customers to help you work through that book so that you can understand which jobs they want to get done, what their pain points are, what gains they have, as a result of using your products and what emotions that they have associated with your product so that you can learn what kind of value proposition you need to differentiate your product from any other product out there.

If you can take your value proposition and apply it to your competitors, then it’s not a good value proposition. It needs to be as specific as possible and based on benefits. The only way that you really understand the benefits of what you have to offer is if you talk to your customers or your potential customers.

Louis: What’s the best value proposition you’ve ever come across?

Nichole: Wow. There’s Slack’s value proposition.

Louis: I’ll let you search for it because I know it’s a tough question, or if you have it handy.

Nichole: Slack is where work happens.

Louis: Surely that can be applied to HipChat.

Nichole: It can. That’s a tough, on the spot question. I would have to look more into that.

Louis: Good. I like to ask tough questions. It’s not easy to be on this podcast. For me either, trust me. But if you can think of another one, let me know. Maybe you have work with a SaaS client, you don’t have to name the client if you don’t want to, but one you came up with a good value proposition you can share that you remember?

Nichole: I worked with vervoe.com and their value proposition right now is ‘your online hiring assistant.’ It’s actually taken months to get to that value proposition. It’s definitely changed over time. That’s just to say, like I was saying earlier, this is a process that does take time and will be continually changing as you figure out what works better and better for communicating with your ideal customers.

Louis: Now you have a first solid value proposition. Before that, we have our ideal customer profile. What will be the next step?

Nichole: You’re going to use that value proposition and create supporting language around it on your website throughout any of your social media that you’re creating and any other pre-marketing kinds of initiatives. You are going to then take that and now that you know who your ideal customer is, what their desired outcome is, you need to determine what the success gaps are within your product and that’s going to be an effort that would be best done by product managers and customer success managers together.

What I mean by success gaps is, say we go back to the AdEspresso example. The functional completion of placing an ad in AdEspresso doesn’t necessarily make the customer successful with the product. It’s whether or not they get customers from placing the ads. They might get really frustrated with AdEspresso because they just keep placing ads and it isn’t quite working out. That might be because they don’t know how to write a really good ad.

You need to create content around how to place a good ad, what kind of copy gets the best conversions for your kind of audience, what are your audience’s pain points and how do you communicate with them about your product.

That success gap is what stands between the ideal customer and them reaching the desired outcome, in that case, they don’t know how to place a good ad. Then you write copy and you create webinars, and you create videos, live Twitter chats or whatever it is that you want to do to communicate with your audience to educate them and fill that success gap so that they are able to move through your product within it and outside of it to reach their desired outcome. I hope that made sense.

Louis: It does. Basically, your product is not your product. Your product is only part of your product in a sense. Content around it is as important because as you said, you need to fill the success gaps that your product might not fill on its own.

Nichole: Exactly. When you look at something like HubSpot which is really difficult to just learn overnight, it can take a long time to learn that product. They’ve got all these academies and training programs that you can join to learn their product. That’s them working on their success gaps.

Louis: There’s one thing that I’m thinking about right now is what if your product doesn’t fill the success gaps enough on their own? Would it be a weak product in a sense? Shouldn’t your product fill the success gaps on its own?

Nichole: Not necessarily. Give me an example of a product that you think does that on its own.

Louis: There’s this Gmail plugin called Boomerang and it allows you to schedule emails in advance and stuff but also enables you to write compelling emails. They set up this sort of AI assistance, when you write an email, it basically tells you, “Well, you are 70% there, you should be a little bit more convincing.” And then it gives you a score up to 100%. With this assistance, it seems like they don’t need to write any blog post or guide around how to write convincing emails because they have it inside their product. Does it make sense?

Nichole: That makes sense and I could argue there that the assistant is what they’re using to help fill the success gap. Doing that can exist inside the product with product messages like if you’re using something like Intercom and outside of it something like a blog or a webinar.

Louis: We’ve been going quite deep into the step by step. Out of curiosity, what will be the next step once you have that, once you have those success gaps filled?

Nichole: Basically, what you’re doing at that point is you’ve got hopefully, some kind of content calendar going and your content calendar is broken down into customer success content which is the kind of content that you’re using to fill the success gaps and inbound marketing content.

What I like to say is inbound marketing isn’t sufficient for SaaS startups because it’s all about awareness, consideration, and decision-making whereas a SaaS startup is constantly about your customer renewing with you. There needs to be this continuation of communicating with them and that’s where these customer success content comes in to help them use your product to reach their desired outcomes.

Louis: It’s an inverted pyramid. You would start trying to require a lot of customers, the funnel gets narrower but then as soon as you get customers, the funnel gets bigger because if you do your job well, they will use your product more and more, they would go to higher plan, they would buy more stuff, they would recommend you to people.

Nichole: Exactly. Inbound marketing doesn’t address what happens after the sale.

Louis: Exactly. This is why your inbound marketing efforts and your customer success efforts should be almost equal. If you’re doing a very good job at customer success, and if your product is very remarkable on its own, it should really feed your inbound funnel.

Nichole: Exactly.

Louis: We’ve talked about a lot of stuff and I have plenty of follow-up questions to ask you that I’m curious about. Thanks so much for taking part in this step by step exercise. I know it’s not easy to get into that level of details but thank you for that.

We touched on a subject I love to talk about which is growth hacking, not because I love it as you might have guessed. It’s quite funny that you mentioned it as well. It seems like either the guests of this podcast research a little bit and understand that I’m not a fan or I just interview people who agree with me which is not good either. I need to find people who don’t agree.

Outside of growth hacking which I think is something that you would’ve answered if I hadn’t mentioned it, why do you think marketers have a bad reputation in general?

Nichole: I think that some of it goes back to SEO to be honest. I was in SEO for a long time and whenever I would get potential customers, they would talk to me about how their last SEO engineer wasn’t helpful to them or they felt like they lost a lot of money or they used a lot of tactics that really didn’t work for them. It’s not the movement itself, it’s the way that people did things within the movement with black hat tactics and things like that that kind of gave it the bad rep for a while. It’s definitely a lot better now but for a while, it was pretty bad.

Louis: What’s the worst things you’ve done as a black hat SEO? I know you’re not a black hat SEO necessarily but what’s the worst thing you’ve done as an SEO practitioner?

Nichole: What was the worst thing I did? One thing I definitely wouldn’t do now is I created all kinds of separate landing pages for different locations to try to appeal to local SEO and getting those local keywords on the page when really, if you are going to be focusing on user experience and being customer first, you would just put everything on one page. It just makes way more sense.

Louis: I see. I was expecting something more juicy but it’s okay. I’m interested in knowing, obviously you’re a SaaS marketing expert, customer success and all of that. When are you going to launch your own SaaS?

Nichole: I have actually impostor syndrome around that. I’m not sure. I might do something with Trevor Hatfield eventually who has been my business partner for over 10 years now. He’s involved with all kinds of product building at the moment. I might eventually work with him on something, maybe in a year or two. Do I know what that’s about? I have some ideas. It would be probably around customer success but I haven’t felt like I know enough still to do that which might sound crazy but that’s where I’m at with it.

Louis: Listen, I understand where you’re coming from. I think most people have impostor syndrome to some degree. I do have it as well quite a lot. But it’s just a curious question more than anything else. You are good enough, you are smart enough, you know your stuff. I’m pretty sure it would be success if you launch something around this area. You have my commission at least.

Nichole: Thank you.

Louis: And the listeners as well.

Nichole: I told you I’m working on a book so I think that’s going to be my first test “product.” I have a very strategic way that I’m going to approach it that I think is going to make it pretty successful.

Louis: Let me guess, you’re going to do it like Laura Roeder from MeetEdgar? Social media scheduling tool. She started it by selling courses. She did that for 10 years or something. She started by selling social media courses and then she built an audience around that and then she was ready to launch a big SaaS business that reached I think $100,000 monthly recurring revenue within a few weeks because she had so many people eager. I can sense that it’s going to be something along those lines, right?

Nichole: Well, I have kind of a similar background in that I have been on the teams for Growth Hacker TV, growthhackers.com, Product Hunt, inbound.org, and SaaS.Community and other communities, and have been extremely active to help contribute it to and help their success. I’ve gotten to know a lot of people and build a “network effect” through doing that.

Louis: You don’t have to quote unquote, you really did. It’s amazing. I don’t remember when was the first time I heard from you or heard of you but it’s been a few years. But since then, you know this effect when you see somebody somewhere, you see this person everywhere? That was what happened. I started to see you everywhere in every single marketing blog I was reading you were there, on every community you were there.

You did a fantastic job and you mentioned all of those places. I wanted to mention them as well to talk about you a little bit because I haven’t done it at the start. You are a SaaS consultant, customer success evangelist. As you said, people can see you on the HubSpot, The Next Web, Product Hunt, ConversionXL, Copy Hackers, you’re a moderator of many communities like Product Hunt, Growth Hackers, Inbound. I mean not necessarily moderator now but you used to be at least. You also have your own slack channel or group.

And I’ve heard that there’s some channels I’m not allowed to get in so that frustrates me. You’re doing a lot of stuff. You’re also part of The Shine Crew with Tiffany da Silva, Talia Wolf, whom I interviewed in this podcast, Claire Suellentrop, whom I interviewed on this podcast as well, her episode will be live before yours.

You’ve done a lot and you’re definitely doing something right. I have a question that is quite personal so you don’t have to answer it if you don’t want to but I do ask it to some guests. If you have to pick an event that made you who you are today, what would it be?

Nichole: I was working with computers as soon as I could sit at one, thanks to my uncle. He was always very encouraging for me to be doing any kind of thing on a computer, a video game, drawing. I guess I was in a very technologically savvy and friendly household.

Louis: That’s good. Do you remember is there any particular software or experience on this computer that you remember vividly?

Nichole: What happened is I had the internet in the mid-90s I want to say. I was in forums back then and I saw that other people had a website and I was like, “Well, why don’t I have that? How do I do that?” My uncle showed me how to look at the source code to see what HTML was being used to create the pages that I was looking at.

I just started reading source code to determine how are these pages created and I bought my own domain name. I taught myself how to do HTML and I started working for local internet companies to build business websites for local businesses. It just kind of went from there. I was just always really excited about how do I drive more and more traffic and get the right people to these websites, how do I meet awesome people through my site.

Louis: It’s funny how many people whom I ask this question answered around something similar. They started on their own, they were curious about websites or something around the internet, then they started to research on their own and launch a few side projects.

It’s interesting to see the pattern emerging that you don’t have to do huge like master degree or go to college to know about this stuff. You do have to go to college if you want to but you can also learn on the side and do things like you’ve been doing. That’s quite interesting.

I have a few questions to ask you, two or three questions before we can close this very interesting interview. I know that you know a lot of the subjects so I really want to ask you this question and you can take your time to find the people that you want to mention. What marketers would you recommend everybody to follow, listeners to follow, that are from underrepresented minorities?

Nichole: Shayla Price.

Louis: Did you know I interviewed her as well?

Nichole: No.

Louis: This is going to be on the podcast. Shayla Price is a content marketing consultant.

Nichole: I’m not sure how to exactly say her name, Creatrix Tiara.

Louis: What did she do?

Nichole: She’s a writer, performer, producer, researcher, she’s an artist. She does all kinds of different things. I actually have a Women in Tech Spotlight series that I used to do. I featured her on that, on my site.

Louis: There’s this Women in Tech that we can still find on your blog, right?

Nichole: Yes.

Louis: There will be a lot of people there that people can follow and all.

Nichole: And Tiffany Mikell. She’s also in my Women in Tech Spotlight. At that time, she helped with trans communities in tech. I’m not sure what she does now.

Louis: That’s interesting. I think listeners can definitely check out your Women in Tech series and try to find people who are not this typical white male, 40-year old marketer. I’m not 40 but I know I’m very lucky to have been born where I was born and to have the education I had. I know that it’s not easy for everybody to have this chance. I think it’s always good to think about that and try to follow people who don’t necessarily have the same background.

Nichole: Yeah. Another one would be Archana Madhavan. She is at Interana. She’s fantastic. I love everything that she writes. I definitely recommend checking out the Interana blog.

Louis: Once again, we will add all of those people in the shownotes so you don’t necessarily have to Google everything. Thanks for the recommendations. That’s really nice. The last question I want to ask you is a question I usually ask every guest at the end. For marketers who want to become better marketers particularly in the SaaS world or even for founders in the SaaS world, what are the top three resources you would recommend to them? It could be books, it could be podcasts, it could be conferences, it could be anything.

Nichole: Sixteenventures.com.

Louis: What is that?

Nichole: It is Lincoln Murphy’s blog on customer success. And depending on if you’re into conversion optimization, obviously, ConversionXL and GetUplift.

Louis: From Talia Wolf.

Nichole: And if you are into writing copy, copyhackers.com.

Louis: The last one I would add is your website nicholeelizabethdemere.com. People can find many, many articles around SaaS and marketing that are really interesting. You answer a lot of questions on Quora that you post there. There’s plenty of places for you to be followed. Apart from your website, where else can people connect with you and learn more from you?

Nichole: In all usual places, LinkedIn, Twitter, in Product Hunt, growthhackers.com, inbound.org, SaaS.Community. I’ve got my own Slack which if you want to email me, anybody listening can get an invite and that’s nicky.elizabeth@gmail.com.

Louis: We will add that as well in the shownotes. Nichole, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. I’ve learned a lot.

Nichole: Thank you.

Louis: I’ll talk to you soon.

Nichole: Thanks. Bye.

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